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Saturday, 23 June 2012
quote [ "Very few women reach leadership positions. [...] 'Women are not making it to the top. A hundred and ninety heads of state; nine are women. Of all the people in parliament in the world, 13 percent are women. In the corporate sector, [the share of] women at the top—C-level jobs, board seats—tops out at 15, 16 percent.'" ]
Interesting article which brings up fundamental issues of work-life balance that are relevant to both men and women.
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snowfox
said @ 4:37am GMT on 23rd Jun
Last part of article would not fit in extended (guess there is a limit after all). Here it is, hopefully it does not get cut: Even the legal industry, built around the billable hour, is taking notice. Deborah Epstein Henry, a former big-firm litigator, is now the president of Flex-Time Lawyers, a national consulting firm focused partly on strategies for the retention of female attorneys. In her book Law and Reorder, published by the American Bar Association in 2010, she describes a legal profession “where the billable hour no longer works”; where attorneys, judges, recruiters, and academics all agree that this system of compensation has perverted the industry, leading to brutal work hours, massive inefficiency, and highly inflated costs. The answer—already being deployed in different corners of the industry—is a combination of alternative fee structures, virtual firms, women-owned firms, and the outsourcing of discrete legal jobs to other jurisdictions. Women, and Generation X and Y lawyers more generally, are pushing for these changes on the supply side; clients determined to reduce legal fees and increase flexible service are pulling on the demand side. Slowly, change is happening. At the core of all this is self-interest. Losing smart and motivated women not only diminishes a company’s talent pool; it also reduces the return on its investment in training and mentoring. In trying to address these issues, some firms are finding out that women’s ways of working may just be better ways of working, for employees and clients alike. Experts on creativity and innovation emphasize the value of encouraging nonlinear thinking and cultivating randomness by taking long walks or looking at your environment from unusual angles. In their new book, A New Culture of Learning: Cultivating the Imagination for a World of Constant Change, the innovation gurus John Seely Brown and Douglas Thomas write, “We believe that connecting play and imagination may be the single most important step in unleashing the new culture of learning.” Space for play and imagination is exactly what emerges when rigid work schedules and hierarchies loosen up. Skeptics should consider the “California effect.” California is the cradle of American innovation—in technology, entertainment, sports, food, and lifestyles. It is also a place where people take leisure as seriously as they take work; where companies like Google deliberately encourage play, with Ping-Pong tables, light sabers, and policies that require employees to spend one day a week working on whatever they wish. Charles Baudelaire wrote: “Genius is nothing more nor less than childhood recovered at will.” Google apparently has taken note. No parent would mistake child care for childhood. Still, seeing the world anew through a child’s eyes can be a powerful source of stimulation. When the Nobel laureate Thomas Schelling wrote The Strategy of Conflict, a classic text applying game theory to conflicts among nations, he frequently drew on child-rearing for examples of when deterrence might succeed or fail. “It may be easier to articulate the peculiar difficulty of constraining [a ruler] by the use of threats,” he wrote, “when one is fresh from a vain attempt at using threats to keep a small child from hurting a dog or a small dog from hurting a child.” The books I’ve read with my children, the silly movies I’ve watched, the games I’ve played, questions I’ve answered, and people I’ve met while parenting have broadened my world. Another axiom of the literature on innovation is that the more often people with different perspectives come together, the more likely creative ideas are to emerge. Giving workers the ability to integrate their non-work lives with their work—whether they spend that time mothering or marathoning—will open the door to a much wider range of influences and ideas. Enlisting Men Perhaps the most encouraging news of all for achieving the sorts of changes that I have proposed is that men are joining the cause. In commenting on a draft of this article, Martha Minow, the dean of the Harvard Law School, wrote me that one change she has observed during 30 years of teaching law at Harvard is that today many young men are asking questions about how they can manage a work-life balance. And more systematic research on Generation Y confirms that many more men than in the past are asking questions about how they are going to integrate active parenthood with their professional lives. Abstract aspirations are easier than concrete trade-offs, of course. These young men have not yet faced the question of whether they are prepared to give up that more prestigious clerkship or fellowship, decline a promotion, or delay their professional goals to spend more time with their children and to support their partner’s career. Yet once work practices and work culture begin to evolve, those changes are likely to carry their own momentum. Kara Owen, the British foreign-service officer who worked a London job from Dublin, wrote me in an e-mail: I think the culture on flexible working started to change the minute the Board of Management (who were all men at the time) started to work flexibly—quite a few of them started working one day a week from home. Men have, of course, become much more involved parents over the past couple of decades, and that, too, suggests broad support for big changes in the way we balance work and family. It is noteworthy that both James Steinberg, deputy secretary of state, and William Lynn, deputy secretary of defense, stepped down two years into the Obama administration so that they could spend more time with their children (for real). Going forward, women would do well to frame work-family balance in terms of the broader social and economic issues that affect both women and men. After all, we have a new generation of young men who have been raised by full-time working mothers. Let us presume, as I do with my sons, that they will understand “supporting their families” to mean more than earning money. I HAVE BEEN BLESSED to work with and be mentored by some extraordinary women. Watching Hillary Clinton in action makes me incredibly proud—of her intelligence, expertise, professionalism, charisma, and command of any audience. I get a similar rush when I see a front-page picture of Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, and Angela Merkel, the chancellor of Germany, deep in conversation about some of the most important issues on the world stage; or of Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, standing up forcefully for the Syrian people in the Security Council. These women are extraordinary role models. If I had a daughter, I would encourage her to look to them, and I want a world in which they are extraordinary but not unusual. Yet I also want a world in which, in Lisa Jackson’s words, “to be a strong woman, you don’t have to give up on the things that define you as a woman.” That means respecting, enabling, and indeed celebrating the full range of women’s choices. “Empowering yourself,” Jackson said in her speech at Princeton, “doesn’t have to mean rejecting motherhood, or eliminating the nurturing or feminine aspects of who you are.” I gave a speech at Vassar last November and arrived in time to wander the campus on a lovely fall afternoon. It is a place infused with a spirit of community and generosity, filled with benches, walkways, public art, and quiet places donated by alumnae seeking to encourage contemplation and connection. Turning the pages of the alumni magazine (Vassar is now coed), I was struck by the entries of older alumnae, who greeted their classmates with Salve (Latin for “hello”) and wrote witty remembrances sprinkled with literary allusions. Theirs was a world in which women wore their learning lightly; their news is mostly of their children’s accomplishments. Many of us look back on that earlier era as a time when it was fine to joke that women went to college to get an “M.R.S.” And many women of my generation abandoned the Seven Sisters as soon as the formerly all-male Ivy League universities became coed. I would never return to the world of segregated sexes and rampant discrimination. But now is the time to revisit the assumption that women must rush to adapt to the “man’s world” that our mothers and mentors warned us about. I continually push the young women in my classes to speak more. They must gain the confidence to value their own insights and questions, and to present them readily. My husband agrees, but he actually tries to get the young men in his classes to act more like the women—to speak less and listen more. If women are ever to achieve real equality as leaders, then we have to stop accepting male behavior and male choices as the default and the ideal. We must insist on changing social policies and bending career tracks to accommodate our choices, too. We have the power to do it if we decide to, and we have many men standing beside us. We’ll create a better society in the process, for all women. We may need to put a woman in the White House before we are able to change the conditions of the women working at Walmart. But when we do, we will stop talking about whether women can have it all. We will properly focus on how we can help all Americans have healthy, happy, productive lives, valuing the people they love as much as the success they seek. |
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Naruki
said @ 5:09am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
You might want to go to lilmookieesquire's profile page and get his code on "How to make boxes". Wrap up your post article while you still have edit privileges. |
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snowfox
said @ 5:17am GMT on 23rd Jun
While I still have edit privileges? As I understood it, those never go away. Thanks for the link but next time try to phrase the proposition less like a strange threat, please. |
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sanepride
said @ 5:24am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Informative]
I think he means while you still have the option to edit your post. After some amount of time after posting (is it 24 hours?) the 'edit' link goes away. |
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snowfox
said @ 5:49am GMT on 23rd Jun
Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for doubting you, Naruki. |
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snowfox
said @ 5:58am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:4 Good]
Here, have this: |
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azazel
said @ 12:24pm GMT on 23rd Jun
That's not grammar, that's "spelling" at best. Maybe "vocabulary." |
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Arravis
said @ 5:09am GMT on 23rd Jun
Was this not always obvious and self-evident? I don't understand how so many, clearly otherwise intelligent women, could not see the clear consequences? This exact problem is true, regardless of gender. I've turned down many jobs simply because of the time it takes away from all the things I want to do (be it spending time with family, or otherwise). This isn't a "woman's" issue, simply an "everyone" issue in my opinion. |
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snowfox
said @ 5:16am GMT on 23rd Jun
That is my point -- it is an everyone issue. Men already gave up their right to be there for their children, and now women are having to do the same thing when we, as humans, should not be doing that at all. |
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Arravis
said @ 5:26am GMT on 23rd Jun
To me, it just seems idiotic for them to have not realized this before. |
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snowfox
said @ 5:32am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Underrated]
If we accept that as the case, it means that women will never be able to rise to positions of power in equal numbers to men. I see this as a problem. The answer is not for humans to adapt to the economy -- it's not the sapient lifeform here, it is our creation -- but for humans to make their business world adapt to them. Business exists to serve us, no matter what anyone tells you, and so we need to collectively put ourselves before it. |
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Arravis
said @ 5:38am GMT on 23rd Jun
I agree completely. Our current system of "work" is inefficient, unproductive, and generally innovation-killing, soul-crushing nightmare. If you give people room in a tempered work environment to follow passions and creativity with some of their work time you'll get massive leaps in innovation. Right now most companies go out of their way to stifle this, and like most governments, their only real interest is in perpetuating a several unnecessary layers of management. |
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Navier-Strokes
said @ 6:28am GMT on 23rd Jun
If I could also add, and what this article and these kinds of discussions never really gives merit to, is that what you study in college matters. Different kinds of jobs are more easily obtained with certain types of degrees / specialties. This is common sense, but it doesn't seem to get said. Consequently, if we're going to have discussions about gender gaps in certain jobs / levels of pay, we really need to go back a little and look at gender incongruities in what people are studying. Whether or not these degrees are meaningful reflections on inherent ability to do a job is a whole different discussion, but the fact remains that degree has considerable implications in what jobs you can obtain. |
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damnit
said @ 5:19am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
The higher you go up, your job becomes a career. A career is your life. People need you. They want your attention. You're on meetings a lot of times. You need to delegate responsibilities. When you're not around, work stops for you. Not that many people are equipped for that. |
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zenviper
said @ 5:28am GMT on 23rd Jun
yep. |
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theolypse
said @ 7:09pm GMT on 23rd Jun
I was a free man, in Paris. I felt untethered and alive. |
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afrasr
said @ 5:27am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:-1 Troll]
LoL Women can't have it all ! What you mean like men haven't been able to have for almost all the 20th century ? Oh noes ! |
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snowfox
said @ 5:38am GMT on 23rd Jun
They haven't either, and I wish the article did a better job of pointing that out. As I said in another comment, men have given up the ability to raise their kids in favor of career, mostly because society told them to do it. Prior to that, we had a largely agrarian society and most of us technically worked at home. The problem is that SOMEONE has to raise the kids, and if the men can't do it, then the women have to. That means that either women can't have kids or women can't be in positions of power. Neither of those outcomes is a good proposition for our society. It would be better to enforce work-life balance so that men and women can raise their children and run society. Even under the current model where men can't have it all either, they are still slightly better off because they can have a career and choose to have genetic offspring (that they can't spend enough time with). The women have to choose whether to have genetic offspring at all. This is ultimately a bad proposition for both men and women. If women choose not to reproduce, that potentially increases violence against women or the number of men with no marriage options -- a recipe for war. If women choose to reproduce and thus never attain positions of power, statistics show that this also leads to more war and violence against women. This is not a matter where we should throw our hands in the air and accept things as they are. That is not good for us collectively. |
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afrasr
said @ 5:45am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:-1]
No no, you don't understand ! Women need to be paid 130% of what men get, and work only 50% of the time they do now.. that way they can have money, time AND raise the kids! And men ? Who gives a fuck about what men want. They need to get back in the office where they belong ! /s |
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papango
said @ 6:28am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
And yet we've ended up with women earning less then men in equal roles, working the same hours and still doing the majority of the housework? How did that happen, do you think? |
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foobar
said @ 8:16am GMT on 23rd Jun
We actually aren't. When you compare all women to all men, there's a not insignificant wage gap, but when you compare like to like it pretty much disappears. See The Gender Gap in Wages, circa 2000. |
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papango
said @ 9:55am GMT on 23rd Jun
Leaving aside the fact that that study doesn't compare like to like, it just takes the 'unadjusted' rate and then makes statistical adjustments, rather than actually looking at real people, it still comes up with 80%. I'll be honest with you, it'll be a sad fucking day when I break out the party balloons because I'm finally worth 80% of what I would be with a dick. |
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foobar
said @ 4:07am GMT on 24th Jun
80% is the unadjusted number. Once she accounts for difference in circumstance, she finds that the rate is 91.4%, 95.1% or 97.5% (she has 3 models. See Table 3). When you look at individuals you have anecdotes. You need statistics if you want data. The data doesn't say that there isn't a problem, but it's important to understand just what that problem is before we try to solve it. |
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azazel
said @ 1:02pm GMT on 23rd Jun
And yet even in jobs with a large degree of women (for instance -- nurses, elderly care etc) working the managers are still mostly men. Interesting. |
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afrasr
said @ 8:06pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Women doign a majority of the housework these days is a partial myth. But even if it's not.. fuck them. If their husband is bringing in a majority of the money by working a 50+ hr week, then why should he be expected to do a majority of the house stuff too? Yeah, doing housework sucks, but do does being stuck at work for 50+ hrs a week. At least if you are at home you can have the radio on, or the TV, and be dressed in lazy clothes while you keep things sorted out. Boo hoo, you have to do a bit of housework.. My heart bleeds |
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bruceski
said @ 6:28am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Funny]
Women get 75% of what men get? You mean I make money and 3/4 of it goes to some chick? What a rip-off! |
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lalanda
said @ 6:32am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:2 Insightful]
Welcome to my marriage. |
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papango
said @ 6:59am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:4 Funny]
That's a terrible situation. You need to talk to your wife and get her to cut you in on bruceski's money. |
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foobar
said @ 7:40am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Underrated]
Being a bitter jerk about it isn't going to bring anyone to the table on the legitimate gender issues men face. |
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afrasr
said @ 7:52pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:-1 Troll]
Pfft even if we were kind about it, Feminists / Traditionalist women still wouldn't come to the table about the issues. In their eyes, they still don't have enough. Men are "the enemy" and need to be fleeced for everything they can get their mitts on. Case in point. Women in most countries get maternal leave. So why aren't fathers allowed paternal leave ? Sure they aren't giving physical birth to the kid, but maybe they want to go and be with their wife, and be a father to the kid from day 1. That's just one example of in equality. And before people start bitching, I am not advocating taking things AWAY from women, I want equality for both sexes in choices. |
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foobar
said @ 4:10am GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:2]
Yeah, they will, and every one I've ever spoken to about it say they just don't want to deal with what you're doing here. Stop it. |
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afrasr
said @ 6:36am GMT on 24th Jun
We can agree to disagree. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 6:51pm GMT on 24th Jun
I suspect that "We can agree to disagree" is code for "The status quo isn't doing me any harm, so why bother changing it?" |
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afrasr
said @ 12:32am GMT on 26th Jun
No, I want to see changes, but I changes that benefit everyone. I believe in equality, not feminism They are not the same thing |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 2:01am GMT on 26th Jun
Why not? |
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mechanical contrivance
said @ 3:05am GMT on 26th Jun
Is masculinism about equality? |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 3:49am GMT on 26th Jun
Define please? |
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mechanical contrivance
said @ 4:44am GMT on 26th Jun
I don't know; I just made it up. I guess it's the male version of feminism. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 7:26am GMT on 26th Jun
The most consistent definition I've heard for "feminism" is something along the lines of "the idea that women are people." So if "masculinism" then means "the idea that men are people," well, hell, I'm in favor of that too. |
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snowfox
said @ 4:29pm GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:2]
You gravely misconstrue the meaning of feminism, and that is because the term has been smeared by misogynists in order to take power away from women and causes that affect them. |
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arrowhen
said @ 9:07pm GMT on 24th Jun
On the other hand, there ARE women out there who think just as afrasr describes, and who call themselves feminists. I was married to one long ago. They might not be "true" feminists, but there's never been an ideal in the whole history of thought that SOME human or another hasn't perverted into a rationale for their own selfish goals. We're really good at that. |
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snowfox
said @ 9:27pm GMT on 24th Jun
I am just tired of a few asshole women being paraded out as a way to discredit the cause of women's rights (which are human rights). Whenever it gets mentioned, it seems to be with a subtext of "women are evil" or "silly women, they should get back in the kitchen". It depresses me. |
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granitewitch
said @ 10:04pm GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
It depresses many of us guys as well, especially those of us with daughters. I'm a deep believer in feminism- my grandmother got her MD in 1925 and worked for Margaret Sanger, so it tends to run in my family. But the hypocritical shrilling harpies I (unfortunately) encounter on a regular basis make me despair at times. Most are simply the mirror image of Rush Limbaugh's followers, parroting things they've heard from someone else without giving it thought themselves. Engage them in a critical discussion of their talking points and it dissolves into angry male-bashing and accusations because they can't logically back up their own statements. It's mere dogma and emotional flup. But I also find women who are feminists, working to improve society for women without raising a lot of noise and rhetoric, who I admire and respect, and that gives me some hope yet. |
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arrowhen
said @ 10:38pm GMT on 24th Jun
It's interesting that you portray those asshole women as BEING paraded out to discredit the cause (i.e., yeah, they're assholes, but it's not THEM doing the discrediting, but some other party), rather than talking about the asshole women themselves discrediting the cause by being asshole women. Do you not think those asshole women are responsible for their own actions? And women's rights are human rights? HELL YEAH! So are gay rights, workers' rights, and any number of others. I think dividing the problem of human rights into separate "x rights" issues is the wrong approach. We can't just fix things one right at a time when it's the whole sick, stupid, unsustainable culture that needs to be fixed. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 12:50am GMT on 25th Jun
Pick your battles; divide and conquer. If you say "I'm in favor of human rights!", most people will say "Uh, okay, sure, so am I," and nothing will change. If you want change, you need to pick one specific issue (women's rights, gay rights, workers' rights) and focus on it. As specific issues change, culture as a whole will change. |
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arrowhen
said @ 2:18am GMT on 25th Jun
Man, I had a rant all typed up here, but my phone ate it. It was really ranty. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 3:03am GMT on 25th Jun
[Score:1 Funny]
There, there. I'm sure your lost rant would have forced me to rethink my entire philosophy of human rights and change my mind in your favor. |
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arrowhen
said @ 5:53am GMT on 25th Jun
It was pretty much what Naruki said, only with lots of hyperbole and swearing. |
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Naruki
said @ 3:05am GMT on 25th Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
I go with human rights and equality. I think those who say they are feminists tend to distract the people they are trying to reach. You always have to explain to them that by "feminism" you really mean "equal rights for women because they've been relegated to second class citizens for so very long", and at that point many of your audience will start to mentally slot you in the "crank" category. To me it's more direct, and it covers most inequality issues you might want to support. Treating women like shit? They need equal rights. Treating blacks like shit? They need equal rights. Gays? Equal rights. Soulless redheads? Equal rights. Illegal aliens? Equal rights. Of course, I have not managed to end any single type of bigotry in the world with my precise but broad position. So I must defer to Barnabas' confusing but narrow position, which has singlehandedly ended ... Well, so maybe that argument doesn't hold water. One thing is true: by adopting a narrow position like feminism or black empowerment, you give conservatives the impression you don't care about other related issues. Or rather, you give them an excuse to pretend you don't care. They love to stereotype liberals as single-issue hypocrites (the fact that super-condensed irony is still not enough to kill someone is the only reason conservatives still live and breathe). For some people it's really true: they only care about their pet issue, and the other groups can go hang. Hell, that is probably the crux of the problem. You can't get one oppressed group to band together with a similarly oppressed group that has a different character. If they all joined forces, there aren't enough Greedy Old Politicks in the world to stop them. |
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arrowhen
said @ 5:58am GMT on 25th Jun
Hell, that is probably the crux of the problem. You can't get one oppressed group to band together with a similarly oppressed group that has a different character. One of the first nasty surprises I got as an sheltered young idealistic dipshit going out to live in the real world for the first time was learning that members of oppressed minorities are just as capable of being bigoted assholes as us Evil White Dudes(tm) are. |
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theolypse
said @ 7:16pm GMT on 23rd Jun
So when someone doesn't coddle your ego, merely agreeing with you, you stay on the offensive? Low class, brah. |
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afrasr
said @ 8:33pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Underrated]
Wow.. re reading what I wrote... I need to be less grumpy in the mornings. I have red bull now... it makes me sane |
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theolypse
said @ 8:11pm GMT on 30th Jun
Can't believe I forgot to upmod this. While I have plenty of problems with your apparent conviction that being a feminist means I hate myself, as a man, anyone who can retreat from a misstep without their pride getting in the way deserves some respect for that. |
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eIfish
said @ 6:02am GMT on 23rd Jun
Women is not one atomic person. Why is it wrong to say that one given woman can either raise children or be an MP? It would be preposterous to suggest that someone could hold a job as a CEO and a childminder at the same time, why the sudden change in standards when it's not someone-else's kids? I found it interesting that a tenured professor, someone that single-handedly makes more than a working-class household, married to another tenured professor who also makes more than a working-class household felt that living on a 'single income' was not an option. |
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blibblob
said @ 6:16am GMT on 23rd Jun
Bringing women into the workforce was a good thing. Turning the situation of now being able to choose the best people for the job from either gender opened up the ability to always have the best person for the job. Where we went wrong was that our previous prejudices of men needing to be the breadwinner never went away. So we ended up having two working parents. I propose this is not really a very good thing. Women, be a successful CEO(after we break down the current Old Boys Club barriers of entry) OR be a housewife. Men, be a successful CEO(already easy, your dad hands it to you) OR be a househusband. It was bad enough that kids raised in the 60s had a daddy who was never there. Now kids have mommies and daddies who were never there. And for a huge portion of society, they still can't make ends meet. Something went seriously wrong over the last 100 years of society, we stopped growing and started taking steps backwards. |
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willrogers
said @ 6:21am GMT on 23rd Jun
Think about what are traditional work hours. Now, think about what are traditional school hours. They match up pretty well, meaning that stay-at-home parents really aren't seeing any more or less of their children than working parents. Sure, not having a job means that you have more time to take care of other chores and errands, but it's a pretty obvious false choice that people, especially women, need to pick between having careers and raising a family. Furthermore, the proliferation of the internet and new technologies (e.g. Skype, smartphones, collaborative software like Huddle, etc.) make it progressively easier each year to telecommute and get work done from the comfort of home, making it even more absurd to structure things as a choice between work vs. parenting. The only problem I see is the erosion of middle class wages that changes it from a choice to financial necessity for both parents to be working outside the home. |
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blibblob
said @ 6:28am GMT on 23rd Jun
You work traditional work hours? I work until 7 or so. Any salaried job that gets listed as "creative" work doesn't pay overtime, but it's still generally expected. Then there are teachers, you can't get real prep work done during school hours, that's part of overtime you don't get paid for. The only jobs that really work 9-5(which, by the way, are NOT school hours for children, that's anywhere from 7-10 in the morning to 2-5 in the afternoon, still necessitating after school day care for even a standard 9-5 job) are your generally accepted blue collar jobs. Of which there are fewer available due to technology every year. |
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papango
said @ 6:30am GMT on 23rd Jun
You don't have kids, do you? Can we hear from some of the parents about how school hours and work hours match up? And how there's no need to choice between a career (which is not the same thing as a job) and being a full time parent? |
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pleaides
said @ 9:54am GMT on 23rd Jun
o/ I've been responsible for my kids for some six months, (as what you might call the primary caregiver) since my spouse has completed her studies and commenced work and I've been winding back my own business with a view to resuming my studies, which I did about a month ago. My two eldest leave for school at about 9 and return at around 3:30. What with transport between home and the site (I work in the trades) I'm doing well to get 5 hours in per day, usually foregoing lunch. The notion that the concurrence of school and work hours means a parent can commit to a full workload is plain unvarnished falsehood. Having said that, I couldn't be happier in my current situation. I'm able to leverage my rather unique skills and experience doing varnish and brush and spray painting on some pretty damn fancy boats during the day, often 'consulting' as a paint expert with several boatyards withing a few miles of my home. I can also spend time doing homework with my eldest boys (7 and 11) and enjoy mucking around with my 2yo daughter. After a couple of cold beers I dive into my formal studies in politics and history from about 7 til well after midnight over a glass or two of red. |
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azazel
said @ 1:07pm GMT on 23rd Jun
School hours, eh? My stepdaughter goes to school at 7:30 (and since it's a heavily trafficked trip one of us still need to get here there), arrives maybe 7:50. Most regular work hours begin at 8:00 here. School day is over between 2-3:30 PM, while your regular job will see you off at 5:00 PM. We do have access to after-school activities at the school though, but once the kids turn a certain age (around 11) they don't want to hang around that stuff, and instead head home, alone. There are only school buses for kids living a certain distance away from the schools. My mother worked half-time to be able to be home when the bus dropped us off (and she left slightly earlier than we did in the mornings, but locking the door wasn't that difficult even at 7 years of age), but it definitely cut into the earnings of the family. |
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azazel
said @ 1:08pm GMT on 23rd Jun
*her there. |
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bruceski
said @ 6:30am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
I've had some discussions about this with a friend. Where women are blasted by the beauty ideal ("you're never pretty enough, you can't be a good partner if you're not pretty") men are slammed by a success ideal ("you're not successful enough, if you aren't an awesome worker how do you expect to attract anyone"). It certainly opened my eyes, but it kinda needs the right discussion group to make sure it doesn't get twisted into diminishing female pressures or full-on misogyny. |
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papango
said @ 6:37am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:3 Underrated]
There is huge pressure on men. I make more than my husband does (by about a third) and it's pretty common for people who find that out to be a) surprised his balls haven't fallen off (they haven't, I check regularly) and b) convinced we will break up because he won't be able to handle it and will need to find a less well remunerated partner. That's some intense pressure. To have the way people assess your male-ness linked to your pay check. And not just that because he makes good money, but somehow he's less of a man because I make more. |
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bruceski
said @ 6:52am GMT on 23rd Jun
It was thinking about that situation and how I felt about it that got me to understand my mother when she admitted something to me years ago. I'm half-Jewish on her side, and she admitted that even though she recognized the hypocrisy there was a part of her that hoped my brother and I would find Nice Jewish Girls to settle down with. I couldn't understand it (well I could on a mental level but not an emotional one) until I had that discussion about success early this year. Even if you know that the anxiety's stupid, even if you've managed to reason it down into a tiny speck, it's ingrained in the society and it never truly goes away. You just need to find a way to deal with it. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 9:16am GMT on 24th Jun
Half-Jewish? What, so you take a Sabbath off every other week? *ba-dum tssh* |
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Mr. Langosta
said @ 6:40am GMT on 23rd Jun
That sandwich isn't going to make itself. |
granitewitch
said @ 7:26am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Funny]
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b
said @ 7:00am GMT on 23rd Jun
Saw this via Jezebel today. Some interesting counterpoints- or at least, differing points of view- there too. |
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granitewitch
said @ 7:55am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:2 Insightful]
This is one of the few discussions I've had with my wife where I genuinely pissed her off. She is now in her mid forties and has never had kids. Instead she traveled a bit, lived overseas and got two Masters and a PhD. Her career is right on the verge of becoming something really remarkable- already she's been on NPR, quoted in an article on the front page of the Wall Street Journal and has been in discussions with Katie Couric's staff about an interview. But she still broods on not having kids of her own. She was commenting on a professor we both know who just had a kid and is an assistant dean, and is apparently having it all. I replied that she'll likely not do any of it well- which was when she got mad at me. But I stand by my statement, as career, marriage and children all take a large chunk of your attention and energies, and we all have limits. Twenty five years ago my (now ex) wife and I had this discussion: I could be a career person and really light up my job and advance, or I could accept a lesser role in the company and focus more on my kids. I had to make the same choices many years later after graduating engineering school as a single parent with a loony ex. In both cases I chose to focus more on the kids. While I stand by those choices, it has definitely come at a very large cost to me. I was in my forties before I ever left the continental US, and until the past year really haven't had the freedom to focus on my own needs without having to worry about how it would impact my kids. (My youngest is now at Syracuse University.) I wasn't able to really focus that well on either engineering school or my job due to the chaos from the divorce which had me doing damage control on my kids, so I really don't have a career now. I do, however, have a good relationship with my kids. After I explained all of this to my wife she was no longer angry with me and could grudgingly see my point. If a parent wants a high powered career it will come at the expense of his or her family. If they try to juggle all of it at once they will have a somewhat distant relationship with their kids and perhaps with their spouse, and still not be at the top of their game at work. Unfortunately we have been sold a pipe dream, via TV and church and everything else that programs us to feel inadequate if we're not wealthy with good careers and perfect children and a loving spouse. None of this is news to me, and I'm a little surprised that it's taking this long for the rest of them to figure it out. Women can be leaders just as well as men, but it comes at a cost that not many of them are willing to pay. |
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snowfox
said @ 8:25am GMT on 23rd Jun
The difference is that men can still have biological children in that situation, though they can't raise them. The women must choose whether to have children at all because having a baby requires time off, there is no way around it. The decision seems ok on a case by case basis, but when you look at the cumulative pattern it creates a society where women can never be equals to men. And if women did suddenly start to choose differently, we'd have a society where men could not easily find women to have children with. |
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eIfish
said @ 10:35am GMT on 23rd Jun
You could have someone foster your ovum. |
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cb361
said @ 10:40am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Funny]
That's a terrible pick-up line. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 9:18am GMT on 24th Jun
And that's a good tagline. "Sensible Erection: That's a terrible pick-up line." |
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quaint
said @ 10:37am GMT on 23rd Jun
Women never can be equal to men. And men can never be equal to women. We are different from each other. What we need to do is recognise and embrace that difference, rather than trying to force women to be like men or men to be like women. I don't understand why people have such a difficulty grasping this concept. If an individual woman or man decides "Hey, I want to fall into the stereotypical working/living pattern of the opposite sex" then hey, dandy - but for the majority of people that just won't work. If an individual woman decides to bust her balls at the office and does as well as a man would, she should be paid as well as a man would. But if she strolls in at 9:30 and leaves again at 3:15 to pick up her loinspawn from school, no way should she get the same pay as the man who's bringing in double the money for the business. |
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azazel
said @ 12:55pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Underrated]
The problem is that the glass ceiling exists, and it's a problem for women (and gays, transsexuals and pretty much every minority group -- but it's most notable between the genders). The default or average exec/director/manager is a white, middle-aged male -- and while they might not consciously create a glass ceiling, it's created because of the situation. I'd link you papers, but I'm in a bit of a hurry; my girlfriend's been at her mom's with the kids and she's coming home tonight, so I need to tidy up the place, do the dishes and laundry and all that stuff. |
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pleaides
said @ 11:16am GMT on 23rd Jun
Honestly snowfox I see that as a bit simplistic, and a bit unfair to the dudes. While the woman's role in child rearing would ideally perhaps involve her having a year off to bond with and rear the baby, there's formula now, and there's really nothing stopping fathers taking up the same role that would have formerly have fallen to their wives. Basically, once the rigours of birth have been dealt with then either one of the parents can take up the reins with almost equal efficacy. The guts of the problem is the 'guts' basically. The elements of bringing a child into the world that are biologically the province of the female of the species only simply require that the mother have some time off work. Once that bit is done (say two weeks prior and two weeks post) then there is nothing that precludes the gender roles from being completely interchangeable. Personally, I see no reason why the responsibility for caring for a baby ought to necessarily fall on one or the other parent outside of the biological province mentioned above. A month off ought not be more than might be expected for anyone should they suffer the loss of a parent or a child, and therefore does not really represent a significant gender difference. Honestly, I think that any man would be a fool to not grab with both hands the chance to be the 'main parent'. If I had my druthers it'd be my main request. |
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azazel
said @ 12:57pm GMT on 23rd Jun
This is why I love Sweden. I'm currently on parental leave (and have been for a bit over a year -- you get new days for each kid (and we had two, there are only 11 months between my daughter and my son. Yeah, not planned but whatever) while my gf finishes her studies. Once she's done I'll study while she supports me. At least that's the plan. |
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lalanda
said @ 7:45am GMT on 24th Jun
Does that mean a company has been paying for you to not work for 11 months? Or is it a sabbatical? Basically, I'm wondering how companies can afford this. |
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theolypse
said @ 9:10am GMT on 24th Jun
Regulations against predatory lending help. |
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papango
said @ 10:20am GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:1 Interesting]
We have paid parental leave. I don't know how long it's for, but the company pays you a wage for so many months after a baby is born. And they have to have your job for you to come back to. Everybody has to do it, so it's not really a disadvantage for any one company. Much like any other cost, well run companies factor it in when they budgeting. |
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zarathustra
said @ 1:49am GMT on 25th Jun
Does it create any problem with discrimination in hiring? |
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papango
said @ 5:37am GMT on 25th Jun
Not that I've noticed. The child-bearing window is about 10 to 15 years wide. And both parents are entitled to the leave. So without asking a bunch of questions the law prohibits employers from asking (marital status, etc) it's hard to pick out the breeders from the non-breeders. I guess it might make employers consider hiring older people, but the over fifties are so heavily discriminated against at the moment I'd have a hard time working myself into a lather about it. |
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azazel
said @ 2:15pm GMT on 24th Jun
The short version is: the state pays; if you've worked and/or studied for the last 12 months before applying for parental leave you get 80% of your salary, otherwise you get a mininimum amount. |
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azazel
said @ 7:38pm GMT on 24th Jun
We get around 400 days per child (unsure about the exact number of days), a certain amount of those are at the 80% payout value, the rest at the minimum amount. If you have single custody you get all the days, if not each parent get 200 days. Parents can give their days to the other parent if they wish, and the days expire once the child turns 11. Or something like that. |
ComposerNate
said @ 9:12am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Funny]
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sanepride
said @ 4:40pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Well we do at the moment have a black President, a female secretary of State, an Hispanic Supreme Court Justice, and fairly ethnically diverse Cabinet. Still working on the gay rights, but otherwise not too shabby. |
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cb361
said @ 9:42am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
I think it's more about personality type than gender to be honest. People in power are a certain personality type, and to the extent that devolve power to new people, they do it to people similar themselves. I've complained about the whole macho alpha-male thing before so I'll try and keep this short, but unless you play the game, you're just not going to get anywhere in most power structures. And it's a game built around traditional male skills/attributes. So yes, women can climb the ladder, but only by being as manly (or more manly) than the other men and women who they are competing with. You can be Margaret Thatcher and go right to the top, but these 'attributes' and rarer for women than for men. Snowfox, I know you've said before that you're frustrated the limits that society places on you for not happening to have a Y chromosome, but I've got one and I can tell you that it doesn't make anything easier on its own. As something of a girly-man, there is just as much glass ceiling for me as for any woman. I'm thinking here about my own culture here though. I'm sure that in many cultures, women are heavily discriminated against just for being women. Plus you can be unlucky enough to find a misogynist in any society anywhere. |
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Spaceloaf
said @ 10:08am GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Informative]
Thank you; you expressed this idea much better than I did. To go further, it's my hypothesis that women just tend to be better adjusted emotionally compared to men. Most women want a balanced life, whereas men more easily develop unhealthy obsessions. In the negative direction, you end up with basement dwelling otaku who start flame wars on youtube. On the other end, you get Bill Gates. It's just a slightly wider distribution for men in both directions. But in a competitive market, the high tail of the distribution is going to get picked, which then ends up being proportionally more male than female. The reality is that most of us are never going to be in the high tail, regardless of gender. |
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azazel
said @ 12:50pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Informative]
This is a load of crock. |
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1000gpw
said @ 6:04pm GMT on 23rd Jun
No it isn't. Human males have more variability than females in all traits, including intelligence and personality. In other words, given 1000 people, both the most intelligent and least intelligent people are likely to be men. This is an evolutionary fact due to the different selective pressures on the sexes. Women could only have a limited number of offspring per lifetime regardless of their social status or fitness. Thus, it paid to be more average in order to avoid the risk of ending up on the wrong tail of the distribution and dying off. Men, being larger than women (sexual dimorphism) evolutionarily had multiple mates. This also meant many men didn't have any mates at all. For a male, being average was only slightly better than ending up on the wrong tail, and it paid to be more variable for the chance at ending up on the high end of the distribution and having many, many offspring. In a purely competitive environment (such as chess) men will tend to dominate the top end. But politics is also about representation, which is why we need to consciously go against the competitive bias. This isn't to say that women don't have greater family obligations (they do, both biologically and socially imposed), but these obligations aren't the only reason why men outnumber women at the top. |
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theolypse
said @ 7:12pm GMT on 23rd Jun
No, no, it's an empirical fact. The evolutionary explanation is hypothesized. It's not even a theory, if you can't make predictions from it. |
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cb361
said @ 9:48am GMT on 23rd Jun
I was listening to a science program on the radio about a study into whether people with children and happier or less happy than people without. I know SE doesn't have much respect for science journalism, but the interviewer seemed to be asking the researcher the right questions about how the study was designed. Their findings where that women had a similar level of happiness, whether or not they had had children, but that men without kids were significantly less happy than men who were fathers. |
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theolypse
said @ 7:21pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Similar findings occur w.r.t. romantic involvement. Not surprising. |
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danshyu
said @ 12:33am GMT on 24th Jun
It's official! Women hates children! |
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Spaceloaf
said @ 9:49am GMT on 23rd Jun
I don't agree with this article at all. I work for a major corporation and there are plenty of women in high positions who also have multiple kids. Just because they have to take 6 months off doesn't mean that they are somehow giving up their career. What makes them give up their career is missing everything after the birth, and that sacrifice is the same whether you are a man or a women. To get ahead, you have to bust your ass off regardless of gender. As a matter of practicality, we live in a competitive work society. If you aren't willing to make the sacrifice, there are 5 other people that are. That level of competitiveness is never going away no matter the gender politics. All of the leaders at my company are superwomen/supermen. I don't see any asymmetry. The women managers stay just as late as the men do. By contrast, I'm a male with no desire for kids, and I don't even want a manager position because I have no desire to devote that much of my life to work. I don't see the inequality; anyone willing to put in the hours can get the position. |
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kichijoii
said @ 6:55pm GMT on 23rd Jun
The point is that those sacrifices greatly affect women who DO want to have (and love, and care for) families. As long as the system requires such sacrifices to get ahead, these women will have to pick and choose; they will never have it ALL. |
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theolypse
said @ 7:23pm GMT on 23rd Jun
You largely don't see the inequality because you're not facing the same pressure to reproduce that a woman in your position is likely to. Privilege blinds, first. |
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eIfish
said @ 9:05pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1 Underrated]
So why is it that pressure to reproduce can't be the thing to change? |
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arrowhen
said @ 10:26pm GMT on 23rd Jun
I want to not have your babies! |
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papango
said @ 1:35am GMT on 24th Jun
I think it can, the social side of it certianly. But there is a very strong physical/hormonal need to procreate. I've noticed it in myself. And I've never wanted to have kids, it's never been something I've been on the fence about, the answer has always been 'no'. I'm now physically incapable due to 'the little ovarian cyst that could (take over my womb)', and this week I am under Psych Crisis Management because I'm currently dangerous to both myself and others (that is not a cry for help or attention, I am getting both in huge amounts). Nobody thinks me having kids is a good idea, especially not me. And yet. Every so often I get a twinge, a little spasm deep in my gut that maybe I should have a baby. I expect in people who like children and have always wanted them the urge must be very strong. |
arrowhen
said @ 3:59am GMT on 24th Jun
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arrowhen
said @ 4:03am GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:1 Good]
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theolypse
said @ 9:12am GMT on 24th Jun
I want it to. That would be great. That would be really, really, swell. It's a bit subtler than "Woman X makes 75% of the income that Man Y does at the same job," and correspondingly more challenging to get people fired up about. |
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arrowhen
said @ 9:55pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:1]
And women don't face the same pressure to succeed at work -- when was the last time you heard a woman complain that dudes wouldn't sleep with her because she didn't have a good enough job? Things suck all over. But because they don't suck exactly equally for everyone, these discussions always turn into unproductive pissing contests over whose team gets oppressed the most. Those arguments further cement the notion that each individual oppressive situation is its own discrete problem when they're actually all symptoms of the same disease. The problem here isn't that women are unfairly prevented from becoming larger gears in the evil machine, the problem is that the machine itself is evil. |
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arrowhen
said @ 11:41pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Take back your upmod, you |
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arrowhen
said @ 11:43pm GMT on 23rd Jun
hateful fucktard. |
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lalanda
said @ 7:52am GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:1 Funny]
I got rid of it for you. |
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theolypse
said @ 9:14am GMT on 24th Jun
For what it's worth, I entirely agree with you. |
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scojam
said @ 1:50pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Women as a group have achieved so much over the past 50 years however, as much as they have gained, and it is impressive, if you follow television you will believe that the most important issue for women, all women, and it has always been so, is seepage. |
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bltrocker
said @ 4:43pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Very interesting article. I think it's totally worth it to step back sometimes from being egalitarian idealists to really hash out the differences between the sexes. I think there is something to be said for the majority of women being better hardwired for raising kids than the majority of men. |
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theolypse
said @ 7:24pm GMT on 23rd Jun
Yeah. Seriously. Genetic predispositions aren't relied on nearly enough, when social constructs are threatened. |
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kichijoii
said @ 7:07pm GMT on 23rd Jun
[Score:2 Insightful]
This issue is not limited to women. The American workplace is generally hostile toward families. There's the notion that you should spend as much time working as possible, that you should sacrifice everything else for the sake of company profit. If you can't handle it, it's your fault and you deserve to starve in a gutter, or at least fade into mediocrity. Part of the problem is the creep of business values into the personal life. There's also the devaluing of having a personal life separate from business. We have some band-aids on the problem, like workplace day-care and maternity leave, but what we really need are fundamental changes in attitudes toward families, like a guaranteed and enforced and protected right to have a family AND a career. |
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arrowhen
said @ 8:35pm GMT on 23rd Jun
What if I don't want a family? Do I still get a guaranteed, enforced, and protected right to pursue my chosen brand of happiness AND have a career? |
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devilsad
said @ 9:37pm GMT on 24th Jun
Sadly the future of society and the ability for you to receive a pension when you retire don't depend on you being able to have a couple of afternoons off each week for golf. Kidz is serious bizness. |
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arrowhen
said @ 2:06am GMT on 25th Jun
Nah, no matter how good or bad their conditions are, people are going to keep spitting out kids. And then complaining about them. |
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papango
said @ 5:43am GMT on 25th Jun
[Score:1 Informative]
I have used the 'domestic leave' provision to take my cat to the vet. I just cannot bring myself to mark our six-monthly trip to have his anal glands expressed as a 'holiday'. I don't feel guilty about this because I am totally open about it with my boss, and I happily cover for parents who have to leave work early because their child is oozing or shedding its husk or whatever disgusting thing they're doing. |
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Barnabas_Truman
said @ 7:29am GMT on 25th Jun
Your cat needs to learn to express himself. |
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wenchgirl
said @ 1:11am GMT on 24th Jun
[Score:1 Insightful]
A couple of thoughts. Firstly, an opinion I have seen mentioned several times around the net, is that what is your definition of "it all?" Clearly the author defines having it all as both a career and a family. And that's fine, but some people don't want both of those things, and the problem is "having it all" was defined as an end goal of feminism. But now that "having it all" is increasingly defined as "career + being a mommy" that's having a serious impact on feminism. It is often given as a trade off that making the trade off of how high or far your career goes + number of children is of course personal, and as long as you're happy with your trade off, then that is having it all. The reason this is a problem for feminism is that 1) not everyone wants both of those: some feminists will never want children and some feminists will want a family and children and no career. Both are legitimate goals, whether you are feminist or not. 2) is the fact that it is a trade off at all. In polls it has been found that having a family is indicative of contentment and being fulfilled...for men. For women it is being fulfilled and worried, harried, stressed, etc etc. I saw mention earlier that men do make the trade off of not being with their kids as much, but if they did do this it would make it easier for women to have careers. But women are _expected_ to make this trade off, and happily, to take fewer promotions (and thus pay raises), so they can have a family. And often this expectation is why women are passed over and equality in the workplace isn't happening: bosses are assuming and making this choice on their female employee's behalf, that they would want it and are afraid of asking for it. How patronizing is that? This is anecdotal, but I have heard from multiple people and I bet it has happened more than from those I know. "Having it all" being so narrowly defined is hurting women and feminism. Having it all used to be defined as doing what you wanted, getting what you wanted out of life. Having it now defined for women as working and having a family is just one more way of painting women into a corner that many of them do not want to be in. |
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selfimportant
said @ 10:53pm GMT on 24th Jun
Also there was that novel "Consider Her Ways" |