Friday, 15 June 2012

Never Ever, Ever, Talk to Cops

quote [ A law school professor and former criminal defense attorney tells you why you should never agree to be interviewed by the police. ]

Equal time given to the cops and what they think about this. A great look into the mind of a police officer with 28 years of 'interviews'

Lots of legalese but still, to me, fascinating.

A song, because I like you:
http://youtu.be/I3mVTTBcswk



For a repost gimmie I have:

"If you work in a prison, as I did a few years ago, there’s a decent chance you’ll meet a guy who’ll tell you to be wary of anyone caught smiling in his mug shot. The wisdom of this counsel will become plainly evident when you discover that the man who offered it, and who was rather insistent about it, is himself smiling in his own mug shot"

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2012/06/mug-shot-web-sites.html

[by RedRiverRat@4:19amGMT] [+10 Underrated]

Comments

yasha said @ 4:40am GMT on 15th Jun
a repost . . . but a good repost! :-)
RedRiverRat said @ 4:45am GMT on 15th Jun
I checked, sorry about the repost. Ill see if I can dig up another goodie.
afrasr said @ 4:47am GMT on 15th Jun [Score:1 Underrated]
It's a good repost..

And people need to always be reminded ACAB

ALL
COPS
ARE
BASTARDS
eggboy said @ 5:10am GMT on 15th Jun
Not necessarily, I've met a lot of rad coppers.
There is a big difference between rural coppers and city coppers for one.
Four things;

Don't lie to em, they know when you are lying, they've had a million cunts try to lie to em. Wont work and they'll hate you for it.

Call em sir, even if you hate em, spell it with a C in your own head. Either they are power tripping psychos who will fuck you up for not respecting their authorotai, or good lads who have had a long shift and don't want to deal with your 'I have a friend who is a law student' shit. If you did something wrong, did nothing wrong, hate em or love em, call em sir. Works out best in the end.

Don't assume they have a sense of humour. Your boyish grin can get you out of trouble with women and their fathers. Doesn't work on cops. Germans and lesbians have a thousand times more humour in their soul than coppers.

NEVER APOLOGISE. For anything. That's as good as a confession. They may try to get you to say you're sorry, be respectful but don't apologise.

TL:DR- Don't make it personal, waste as little of their time as possible and they'll happily be on their way. Too many people are all 'the cops are cunts out to get me' when they could have easily avoided most off the bullshit by keeping their goddamn mouth shut or saying "no sir".
GordonGuano said @ 5:55am GMT on 15th Jun
That's pretty much the gist of Arrest Proof Yourself, less the chapter describing the life of the career criminal.
eggboy said @ 9:13am GMT on 15th Jun
I haven't read that, anything I've missed?
GordonGuano said @ 9:47am GMT on 15th Jun
Not really, it's mostly a testament to how uncommon common sense is. I think Google books had most if not all of it up for free at one point; it might still be up there.
edga alunpo said @ 12:33pm GMT on 15th Jun
The bit about apologising is good advice because:

a: you did it, and you'tre gonna get done for it anyway
or
b: you didn't do it, so you dont need to apologise.


Cops get perplexed (in my experience) when you admit you did it but wont apologise... you are being responsible for your actions. (although apologising to the judge can get you lenience)
spite48 said @ 3:44pm GMT on 15th Jun
Don't admit anything to the cops. If you want a deal with respect to leniency, have your lawyer negotiate it with the prosecutor on a 'without prejudice basis' so that any admissions aren't admissible in Court unless a deal is made.
yevishere said @ 4:48am GMT on 15th Jun
Its a repost, but still a good one.
Cakkafracle said @ 5:39am GMT on 15th Jun [Score:1 Interesting]
I am glad I saw this video, no matter it's place in the archives. Thank you.

now I must look into Cdn/Mb laws regarding all this. woefully sheepish in this dept.
Adam said @ 6:08am GMT on 15th Jun [Score:5 Insightful]
I've said this until my throat is raw. Don't say anything, don't admit anything, don't try to talk your way out of anything. If they threaten to "take you down to the station," then let them. Sit quietly while they make their threats and pretend to "look up the laws." But for fuck's sake, say nothing.

I defended lots and lots of people who could have gone home with no convictions on their records if only they'd understood that nothing that one tells a cop will ever help. If a cop is determined to arrest you, he will, and anything you say to convince him that he shouldn't will (at best) do nothing, and (at worst) give him a basis to conduct a more invasive search, run another record, claim you tried to resist and beat you senseless, etc.
Ebichuman said @ 10:19am GMT on 15th Jun [Score:1 Underrated]
Exactly. It's amazing how hard this is for most people, though.

It sounds crazy, but refusing to talk to a cop who is being nice, just asking for a yes or no answer, just asking this small detail that would be obvious to a rational person, feels rude. People have a hard time in the situation dealing with the social pressure to talk created by that and other factors.

My own experience is that RedRiverRat's video is, content-wise, nearly identical to the presentation I got in criminal procedure, from our former US prosecutor instructor. Except that he didn't talk like methed-out auctioneer, though I kind of like the breakneck speed. (Fast enough that "shaken baby syndrome" at 16:30 becomes shamefully funny.)
Anti-fuites said @ 3:25pm GMT on 15th Jun
That's one reason I find all those cop dramas that spam primetime television so stupid. They all end the same way. Get the suspect into an interrogation room and trick him into confessing.
spite48 said @ 3:42pm GMT on 15th Jun [Score:1 Underrated]
That's how it goes in real life.

Cop: "We already have enough evidence to convict you and put you away forever" (lie, they suspect the accused, but don't know for certain he was the killer)

Cop: "If you confess and show remorse, then we'll talk to the prosecutor about getting you some leniency. You might get 5 years. We like you. We think you just got caught up in a situation, and didn't really mean to kill him. Is that right?"

Accused: "I didn't mean to kill him, it just kinda happened"

Now the cops know they have the killer, and they can gather evidence of motive and premeditation either circumstantially, or by continued interrogation, and they can get any warrants they need based on that admission.

The conversation about leniency with the prosecutor goes like this:

Cop: "I promised the accused I'd talk to you about leniency. I recommend not giving him any."

Prosecutor: "Hmm, well okay, you know I don't listen to your recommendations about leniency anyway, and it's up to the judge, not either of us."

In Canada cops are allowed to lie to get people talking, including falsely stating that an adverse inference will be drawn from exercising the right to remain silence. That lie which usually works quite well unless the accused knows enough to just sit there in stony silence.
theolypse said @ 12:12am GMT on 16th Jun
So your state actors are legally permitted to deceive rights-holders about the rights the state is not allowed to violate.

spite48 said @ 12:23am GMT on 16th Jun
Effectively, yes. Basic summary from wikipedia:

In R. v. Singh (163 C.R.R. (2d) 280), a person in police custody invoked his right to silence 18 times, and after each invocation, the police continued to browbeat the detained subject with further questioning, implying that his claim of a right to silence was either ineffective or meaningless. The Canadian Supreme Court ruled that this police behavior did not violate the right to silence, so the evidence obtained could be admitted.
v0idmagus said @ 1:48am GMT on 16th Jun
The US isn't that different - what stops police from talking to you isn't the right to silence, but the right to representation.
Adam said @ 6:35am GMT on 16th Jun
It's good to be reminded periodically that other counties have high courts that make shitty decisions too.
theolypse said @ 4:49am GMT on 17th Jun
That's pretty grotesque, dude.
spite48 said @ 3:50pm GMT on 18th Jun
I know. It makes the right meaningless. The average person doesn't read case law and gets their legal education from US cop dramas, so when the police tell them that their assertion of a right to remain silent is meaningless, they accept that from a person they understand to be an honourable representative of the government in a position of authority.

They don't know that judges have decided that the only way to assert a right to remain silent is to ignore the cops' lies and simply remain silent.
Ronin.ca said @ 6:55am GMT on 20th Jun
When we were at the central police station getting our finger prints done for immigration I got to talkign with the bored cop. He told me that a lot of people they arrest don't seem to understand that he (they take turns in the holding cells), the cop who arrested him and the cop who took his picture a) all work together for the same entity b) actually communicate to each other.

He told me that quite often people would say things like "ha, that guy has nothing on me because I hid the drugs under the spare tire of my car and he'll never think to look there.".

Then again, this IS Christchurch and a lot of the crims here seem to be as dumb as posts.
germanjulian said @ 11:06am GMT on 15th Jun
How is the law in the Uk and Germany?
eIfish said @ 11:27am GMT on 15th Jun
UK does not have one unified legal system.

Northern Ireland, England, and Wales have weaker provisions than the Forth Amendment (though no-one's been convicted purely on the basis of having remained silent); Scotland does have a comparable right to silence. The whole UK has a statute making it an offense not to divulge a password.
zarathustra said @ 12:08pm GMT on 15th Jun
In england, you have a right to remain silent but a negative inference can be drawn if you invoke it. That is, if you refuse to offer an excuse or explanation for your actions and then do so at trial, they can point at your earlier refusal as evidence against the credibility of your excuse.
Taleweaver said @ 9:57pm GMT on 15th Jun
Germany has the same "no self-incrimination" laws. If you're the suspect of a crime, you need not talk to the police. If you do talk to the police, everything you say can be used against you. Not talking to the police can never make your legal situation worse than it is. If you're a first-degree relative or a spouse of someone suspected of a crime, you have the same right to remain silent.

There's one difference: If you're questioned as a witness (not as a suspect), you would normally be obliged to tell what you know truthfully. However, you may remain silent if, by witnessing against someone else, you would incriminate yourself of a DIFFERENT crime - and police may not start an investigation against you on the grounds that you refused to testify for that reasons. There must be other suspicions against you already, or the entire case would be dismissed in court later because of an error in the police investigation.
knucklehead said @ 1:03pm GMT on 15th Jun
So, do you just say I plead the fifth? Or just shut your mouth entirely like a mute.

I am pretty gregarious this would be pretty hard for me. Thanks for any advice.
shahmat said @ 1:43pm GMT on 15th Jun [Score:1 Informative]
They actually just had a case last year that dealt with this. The judge ruled that you must confirm that you are invoking your 5th amendment right to the police - not talking doesn't communicate your intention to... not talk.
spite48 said @ 3:45pm GMT on 15th Jun [Score:1 Informative]
Which is the opposite of in canada, where expressing that you intend to rely on your right to silence isn't effective, but simply remaining silent will work.
lilmookieesquire said @ 7:00pm GMT on 15th Jun
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/supreme-court/2010/06/supreme_court_rules_in_miranda.html

+


The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that a criminal suspect must explicitly invoke the right to remain silent during a police interrogation, a decision that dissenting liberal justices said turns the protections of a Miranda warning “upside down.”

The court ruled 5 to 4 that a Michigan defendant who incriminated himself in a fatal shooting after nearly three hours of questioning thus gave up his right to silence, and the statement could be used against him at trial.

“Where the prosecution shows that a Miranda warning was given and that it was understood by the accused, an accused’s uncoerced statement establishes an implied waiver of the right to remain silent,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the court’s conservatives.

In a separate case, the justices unanimously agreed that a former prime minister of Somalia who now lives in Fairfax County may be sued in U.S. courts by fellow countrymen who claim he oversaw killings and torture in their former home. Mohamed Ali Samantar was part of the country’s ruling government in the 1980s and early 1990s.

In the case about Miranda rights, suspect Van Chester Thompkins remained mostly silent for three hours of interrogation after reading and being told of his rights to remain silent and have an attorney. He neither acknowledged that he was willing to talk nor that he wanted questioning to stop.

But detectives persisted in what one called mostly a “monologue” until asking Thompkins whether he believed in God. When asked, “Do you pray to God to forgive you for shooting that boy down?” Thompkins looked away and answered, “Yes.”

The statement was used against him, and Thompkins was convicted of killing Samuel Morris outside a strip mall in Southfield, Mich.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit said that Thompkins’s silence for two hours and 45 minutes of the interrogation “offered a clear and unequivocal message to the officers: Thompkins did not wish to waive his rights.”

But Kennedy said it was not clear enough. “If Thompkins wanted to remain silent, he could have said nothing in response to (the detective’s) questions, or he could have unambiguously involved his Miranda rights and ended the interrogation,” wrote Kennedy, who was joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr. “The fact that Thompkins made a statement about three hours after receiving a Miranda warning does not overcome the fact that he engaged in a course of conduct indicating waiver.”

Kennedy said the court’s new rule — in the case of Berghuis v. Thompkins — was an extension of the logic in a previous case that said a suspect must affirmatively assert his right to counsel.

But Justice Sonia Sotomayor, in the sharpest dissent of her young career on the court, accused the majority of casting aside judicial restraint and creating a rule that marks “a substantial retreat from the protection against compelled self-incrimination” that Miranda established more than 40 years ago.

“Today’s decision turns Miranda upside down,” wrote Sotomayor. “Criminal suspects must now unambiguously invoke their right to remain silent, which, counterintuitively, requires them to speak.” She was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer.

In the case of Samantar v. Yousef, the court rejected claims by the former prime minister and defense minister that he is entitled to immunity under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. That act protecting “foreign states” from lawsuits does not include individuals, the court ruled.

The court said its finding is narrow, but that a lawsuit filed by members of the Isaaq clan, which alleges acts of detention, torture and murder, can go forward.

“Whether petitioner (Samantar) may be entitled to immunity under common law, and whether he may have other valid defenses to the grave charges against him, are matters to be addressed” by lower courts, Stevens wrote .

-- Robert Barnes
-
GordonGuano said @ 1:46pm GMT on 15th Jun
Read Dale Carson's Arrest Proof Yourself if you lve in the States. He was kind enough to put in some stock phrases you can use. The best thing is, of course, to be law-abiding, but you can look up people getting tased and arrested on YouTube who might have gotten off with a warning or citation had they been able to resist being assholes for five minutes (a problem I am not unfamiliar with). Don't make sudden moves or reach for your pockets, (no matter how badly you're craving some Skittles), and you should do OK.
azazel said @ 1:30am GMT on 16th Jun [Score:1 Insightful]
An acquaintance of mine once got very, very drunk at a club here. So drunk that security saw it best that he leave the place. He put up a fight, and police were called to the scene. What's the first thing you do when police are approaching because of something you started?

Hint: it's not putting your hand inside your jacket and shouting "I HAVE A GUN, FUCKERS!". They quickly withdrew and called in (Swedish equivalent) a SWAT team.

He did not have a gun on him. Not that that helped him in court.
ethanos said @ 3:45pm GMT on 15th Jun
i've seen the Wire.
Rammek said @ 2:42pm GMT on 18th Jun [Score:1 Informative]
Sheeeeeeeiiiiiiit.
lilmookieesquire said @ 5:53pm GMT on 15th Jun
This guy has been reposted a thousand times.
I regret I only have one upmod to give.
Officer Trusty said @ 3:19am GMT on 16th Jun
Naw, you can upmod every time it gets reposted.

Did you perhaps mean you can only upmod once per?

Well, did you? And just where were you on the post in question?

Talk to us, come on, it'll make things go much easier on you later.
lilmookieesquire said @ 6:46am GMT on 16th Jun
5th!
RedRiverRat said @ 9:29am GMT on 16th Jun
http://youtu.be/JNE2QnfYcrY

goddamn youtube.

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