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Wednesday, 11 April 2012
quote [ The special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case will announce criminal charges against George Zimmerman Wednesday afternoon, a law enforcement official told NBC News. ]
It's about fucking time.
[politics] [by KingPellinore@7:08pmGMT] [+10 Good] |
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todde
said @ 7:10pm GMT on 11th Apr
Bet he's going to regret the website, the talks with Hannity and running away from his lawyers. |
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Moleculor
said @ 9:29pm GMT on 11th Apr
Did he really run from his lawyers, or did he just get murderized on Sunday and no one's seen him alive since? |
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todde
said @ 11:17pm GMT on 11th Apr
He's in custody and has been charged with 2nd degree murder. |
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radioelectric
said @ 7:43pm GMT on 11th Apr
It is just and appropriate to have a trial in order to determine the truth of what happened. It's not clear how much the spin (both ways) on the reporting of this case might threaten the objectivity of the proceedings though. My prediction is that despite all of the outrage it will come out as self-defence. It's become apparent to me from what I've read that Florida's "Stand Your Ground" laws wouldn't even be necessary for that verdict provided Martin really did assault Zimmerman. Bizarrely, the SYG laws have been used previously to get somebody off a murder where they chased and stabbed a thief. The implications for this case given that precedent would seem to make a conviction even less likely. If Zimmerman is found not guilty (or even given a sentence less than the most extreme possible) the consequences could get pretty ugly. Not looking forward to that. |
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scojam
said @ 8:11pm GMT on 11th Apr
Does SYG apply if you are afraid the cop standing in front of you with taser in his hand might attack you? |
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Anti-fuites
said @ 8:16pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:2 Funny]
If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear from the cop standing in front of you with taser in hand. |
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Office lilmookie
said @ 8:54pm GMT on 11th Apr
I thought the suspect looked stressed out and nervious and, as such, would appreciate a complimentary electro-current massage like you see on the TV. |
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radioelectric
said @ 8:20pm GMT on 11th Apr
It's a law so it would be up to a judge. I'm guessing... no. |
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SicJake
said @ 9:05pm GMT on 11th Apr
Random stranger yelling at you in the dead of night with a gun in his hand is quite abit different than a cop with a taser. Nighbourhood watch should be armed with cellphones to call 911, not guns. |
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foobar
said @ 9:25pm GMT on 11th Apr
Can you really tell the difference between an angry stranger yelling at you in the dead of night and a cop? |
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bruceski
said @ 10:26pm GMT on 11th Apr
If a cop doesn't identify themselves as a cop, do they still count as a cop? I can't tell the difference between TV laws and actual laws anymore. |
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zarathustra
said @ 10:37pm GMT on 11th Apr
Neither can cops. |
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Ankylosaur
said @ 8:45pm GMT on 11th Apr
If Martin attacked Zimmerman, then Martin was standing his ground and defending himself against someone who was threatening him by following him in his car when Martin was alone and confronting Martin with a gun. If Martin had had a gun and shot Zimmerman dead as soon as he approached Martin after being followed, Martin could have used the stand your ground law as a defense. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:10pm GMT on 11th Apr
That depends on whether Zimmerman confronted Martin with the gun. If that was the case and the situation then reached the point where Martin had knocked Zimmerman to the ground then he must have had a tremendous set on him. However, I don't think Zimmerman has to prove that what Martin did was illegal in order to claim SYG. Martin's actions won't be on trial there. It's entirely possible that the law would find them equally culpable for what happened, with the end result being that whichever one of them survived was acting in self-defence. |
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foobar
said @ 9:24pm GMT on 11th Apr
If that happens, Zimmerman is likely to find lots of people feeling very threatened around him and willing to stand their ground. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:39pm GMT on 11th Apr
Whatever happens, Zimmerman's going to have to make a new life for himself somewhere. Not sure whether the US government would "disappear" him if he was found innocent or wait until something happened to him. |
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fz75
said @ 5:56am GMT on 12th Apr
why would it be a governmental job for that? |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:05am GMT on 12th Apr
Would it not? In the UK the government spends a lot of money keeping popular hate figures safe. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 9:29pm GMT on 11th Apr
I think zimmerman would have to prove that he was threatened - so maybe what martin did will be the focus. If he felt threatened and doesn't have to prove it because basically anything can be threatening under the SYG, then the trial is a waste of time. There must be something else there to charge him with....something - which is undisclosed. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:38pm GMT on 11th Apr
Martin's actions will matter, that's not what I disputed. I said that the legality of Martin's actions won't matter so much. They're not going to have a whole post-mortem trial for Martin's actions and then go on to Zimmerman's with the verdict from that in mind. It is possible to "feel threatened" from another person's lawful behaviour. Especially if that lawful behaviour is actually being assaulted by them (but excused by SYG laws). |
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mrcucumber
said @ 10:21pm GMT on 11th Apr
Don't know if it's been posted, but Zimmerman is in custody and is charged with murder in the second degree. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 11:52pm GMT on 11th Apr
You know what? Life is never fair. |
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Ankylosaur
said @ 11:03pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:1 Insightful]
So if I were to break into someone's house and encounter the homeowner, and he grabbed a baseball bat and started hitting me with it, and I pulled out a gun and shot him dead, I would be able to use self-defense as a defense and would face no charges for the shooting? I doubt that. Zimmerman created the situation. He was the one who was acting in a threatening manner. He was the one following a teenager who was walking alone. He was the one who initiated a confrontation when none was needed (and after a 911 dispatcher explicitly told Zimmerman not to follow). He was the one who was armed (and even if Martin didn't know that for certain, Zimmerman was still a threat because Martin might imagine that this threatening-looking guy who was following him was armed or was willing to fight unarmed). You can't claim self-defense when someone is defending himself against you in a situation you created and forced on him. Otherwise, anyone could get away with murder just by throwing their victim some token weapon and shooting them when they try to defend themselves with it. |
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eIfish
said @ 11:11pm GMT on 11th Apr
I don't think your comparison works, because someone's actual home is a special case under both self-defense and SYG laws. |
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Ankylosaur
said @ 11:14pm GMT on 11th Apr
Fine. I'm a mugger in an alleyway, my victim fights back, I shoot him. Self-defense? |
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eIfish
said @ 11:24pm GMT on 11th Apr
That is the law, yes. If your victim pulls a gun on you, and you shoot him, then most places say that's self defense. In places that aren't Florida, you'd have to argue that you couldn't have run away. In almost all places you'd have to argue that you had a sincere belief that your life was in danger. If your victim only has a knife, shooting to kill would probably not be considered reasonable force. Except in Florida. |
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Ankylosaur
said @ 11:31pm GMT on 11th Apr
Sounds like Florida is a great place to be a murderer. |
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mechanical contrivance
said @ 1:40am GMT on 12th Apr
Not if you get sentenced to death. |
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Naruki
said @ 2:06am GMT on 12th Apr
I think he meant to be governor. |
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mechanical contrivance
said @ 3:32am GMT on 12th Apr
Well, I meant to be governor, too, but it never happened. |
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PapaGordo
said @ 6:53am GMT on 12th Apr
Pertinent to the SYG laws are that you have to be there legally. One would rightfully argue that committing a crime would mean that you aren't there legally. All that said IANAL. Also a knife is a deadly weapon especially if it is of illegal dimensions in your jurisdiction. Here is a link to a discussion on the 21 foot rule. 21 foot rule And that is even saying that you don't immediately shoot them you wait until they rush. Excuse my html fu if it doesn't work right |
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willrogers
said @ 8:48am GMT on 12th Apr
It's not necessarily the size of the knife that counts as much as it is the intent and other actions. Many jurisdictions only consider a knife to be illegal once it is used in the commission of a crime, kind of like how a pry-bar or slim-jim are only considered "burglars tools" if you possess them while breaking the law, especially if you are actively committing theft, home invasion, burglary, grand theft auto, etc. So, even cities with relatively restrictive laws like Chicago, NYC, SF, etc. don't necessarily outlaw knives of a given length or size unless illegal possession is being charged along with other crimes. It's also one of those grey areas that allow cops to arrest people because they feel like it and enforce the law unevenly. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:36pm GMT on 11th Apr
The Wikipedia article on SYG mentions criminals using it as a defense as one of the criticisms of the law. |
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zarathustra
said @ 11:49pm GMT on 11th Apr
An initial aggressor who does not use ( nor intend to use) deadly force is met with such force that he must escalate to deadly force to protect himself, it is manslaughter. It is part of the common law doctrine of "imperfect self defense." I don't know if you could use it in the particular example you give, as in felony murder the intention is imputed. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:37pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:5 Funny]
Otherwise, anyone could get away with murder just by throwing their victim some token weapon and shooting them when they try to defend themselves with it. Also known as United States foreign policy. |
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711
said @ 7:57pm GMT on 11th Apr
I hate to say it but who gives a fuck, what's the difference if he goes to jail gets acquitted which he very well might, or some shit sentence, he's fucked either way, don,t get me wrong I'd love to see what comes from a trial, but it's just another Casey Anthony scenario, probably guilty but due to poor police procedure etc., fucked either way. |
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Strunk & White
said @ 8:02pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:5 Funny]
Please see us in our office. |
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Asscheeks Akimbo
said @ 8:07pm GMT on 11th Apr
Is anyone else pissed at the ever-present issue of race in this goddamn story? Can't we be pissed that a young man is dead for possibly no good reason without giving a shit what color he or the shooter is? |
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KingPellinore
said @ 8:11pm GMT on 11th Apr
It's a noble thought, but to answer your question: "No, apparently not yet." |
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feldenglas
said @ 8:12pm GMT on 11th Apr
Agreed with the overall sentiment. If race was not a major factor in the case, we'd be living in a post-racial society, which would be pretty sweet. But we're not there yet, so this dialogue is happening. I don't think it's too late for it to be a productive one. |
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radioelectric
said @ 8:25pm GMT on 11th Apr
The race of the two people involved is information about the case, so it would be strange to discard it. Unfortunately, I think that looking at this through the lens of it being some sort of racial hate crime has distorted both the public response and the way it was (initially at least) reported. |
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lilmookieesquire
said @ 8:49pm GMT on 11th Apr
People: yes Media: no Even if the writers didn't include it, their editors would put it in to make it sensationalist because the media thinks most of America is stupid and wont read it unless it's shocking (and they arent entirely wrong) |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:49pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:3 WTF]
From Wiki: Against NBC NBC News ran a segment with Zimmerman's 911 call which removed part of Zimmerman's statement and the dispatcher's question. NBC then merged Zimmerman's answer into dispatcher into the previous statement. On the recording played by NBC, Zimmerman was heard saying, "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black." In the original 911 recording, Zimmerman said: "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about." The 911 operator then asked: "OK, and this guy, is he black, white or Hispanic?" Zimmerman answered, "He looks black."[140] The Washington Post wrote that NBC's alteration "would more readily paint Zimmerman as a racial profiler. In reality's version, Zimmerman simply answered a question about the race of the person whom he was reporting to the police. Nothing prejudicial at all in responding to such an inquiry... it's a falsehood with repercussions... To portray that exchange in a way that wrongs Zimmerman is high editorial malpractice..."[140] NBC apologized for "an error made in the production process that we deeply regret",[162] The New York Times has since reported that a producer involved in the editing of the audio was fired.[163] This is outrageous. I believe if they tried that in the UK they would be liable to be sued by Zimmerman for a lot of money. It could also cause problems with the jury in court. |
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pleaides
said @ 11:24pm GMT on 11th Apr
Holy fuck that's disgusting behaviour. How is it that what NBC did isn't a criminal act? |
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eIfish
said @ 11:33pm GMT on 11th Apr
Libel's civil, not criminal. |
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pleaides
said @ 11:36pm GMT on 11th Apr
I just came back to correct/clarify that. Ought not any media regulators become involved? |
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eIfish
said @ 11:34pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:2]
Also in the US the media has no legal obligation to tell the truth. |
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hellboy
said @ 5:48am GMT on 13th Apr
Not just the US, that case was also in Florida. That state is just a bag of WTF. |
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sanepride
said @ 8:59pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:3 Insightful]
In principle I agree with you... BUT- every time I consider the question: If the roles were reversed, and the young black guy was the shooter - even shooting in legitimate self defense - would the outcome have been different regarding the immediate pressing of charges? And every time the answer is YES. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:46pm GMT on 11th Apr
That's to ignore one issue floating around relating to race though, which is the huge hubbub about whether Zimmerman is white or hispanic. This gets broken down into his genetic background, the immigration history of south america, whether hispanic is just a type of white, etc. For for the Martin side there's a lot invested in making this about a white man killing a black kid. For the Zimmerman side they want to make him not-white to break that narrative. It's pathetic that it matters. |
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sanepride
said @ 10:15pm GMT on 11th Apr
Sure..in all honesty I think the issue of Zimmerman's alleged racism is the least important aspect when addressing these issues in this case. The question of unequal treatment under the law is to me a lot more valid and compelling. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 11:53pm GMT on 11th Apr
And racism doesn't factor into that? |
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sanepride
said @ 1:22am GMT on 12th Apr
What? Of course it does. Why would you suggest otherwise? |
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incpenners
said @ 12:12am GMT on 12th Apr
You're presuming that Zimmerman has to bear the burden of some other social injustices. He doesn't. He's charged with one crime that will be difficult (at best) to prove. Under the Stand Your Ground law, if Martin struck Zimmerman first, then Zimmerman had-- under Florida law-- every right to shoot him. I'm not saying I agree with it, that's the law. Despite the misdirection of ABC (with the leaked jailhouse tape) it's clear that Zimmerman suffered some wounds to his face and the back of his head. He was treated by EMS at the scene and their reports bear this out. All of this is to say that without any witnesses and without Martin, Zimmerman may well walk. Meanwhile he's got a pretty good civil case against NBC, and if not civil action, then at the very least appeal-able actions based on the prejudicial and inflammatory actions of (insert name of media outlet here), Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and possibly President Obama. I'm not saying those people can't speak about a public events, but their statements could be interpreted as prejudicial. Zimmerman may also be able to get a sympathetic prosecutor to bring civil rights charges against members of the New Black Panthers Party, as well as felony conspiracy and incitement to commit murder. I have no idea what happened that night, nor does anyone else here. The courtroom is the appropriate place for this to be heard and judged. I have a real problem with the suggestion that if the verdict doesn't go one way or the other there should be 'unrest'. Bullshit. Let justice be done in an open court of law, and let the law deal with Zimmerman. Otherwise, we are what we claim to abhor about him in the first place. |
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granitewitch
said @ 12:59am GMT on 12th Apr
I wouldn't say that there should be unrest, but I predict that there will be. There are far too many tempers running hot. No matter what the verdict is, someone's likely to kick something off. I really hope to be proven wrong, though. |
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sanepride
said @ 1:29am GMT on 12th Apr
Well for once you've said virtually nothing I disagree with here. But my comment really had nothing to do with Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. It's about the perception that he hadn't been charged up to this point at least in part due to a racial dynamic - i.e. that if it were reversed and Trayvon was the shooter he would have been charged. |
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willrogers
said @ 1:31am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:2]
Wow, just look at all these lies, half-truths, and other partisan bullshit. Under the Stand Your Ground law, if Martin struck Zimmerman first, then Zimmerman had-- under Florida law-- every right to shoot him. I'm not saying I agree with it, that's the law. That's not what the SYG law is and the authors of the law have clearly and explicitly stated that Zimmerman's case is not covered under the SYG law. The SYG law doesn't govern "who hit who first," it concerns the right to not have to flee from a threat to your life. As indicated by the Florida legislators, SYG does not cover cases where there is no immediate threat to you, but you actively pursue a perceived threat anyways, i.e. what Zimmerman did. Zimmerman is the one at fault here because he instigated the confrontation by actively stalking a 17-year-old. Trayvon was at worst defending himself against an adult who was stalking him, making Zimmerman the criminal here at every step of the game and Trayvon the victim. Despite the misdirection of ABC (with the leaked jailhouse tape) it's clear that Zimmerman suffered some wounds to his face and the back of his head. He was treated by EMS at the scene and their reports bear this out. More Bullshit. You can't honestly blame ABC for not digitally enhancing raw footage. ABC aired the completely unedited footage, while other sources actively manipulated the footage to get a closer picture of details within the video. You can't really fault a news source for not modifying evidence. Yeah, Zimmerman had wounds, they were Trayvon's defensive wounds that he inflicted on his attacker. Nice job of leaving out that Zimmerman and his lawyer completely lied about the severity of Zimmerman's wounds, including that he had a broken nose. If he really had a broken nose he would have been sent to a hospital, not just treated and released by EMS. All of this is to say that without any witnesses and without Martin, Zimmerman may well walk. There are plenty of witnesses, all of whom at least partially refute Zimmerman's side of the story, e.g. Trayvon's girlfriend who says Travon was actively running away from Zimmerman because he feared for his life. Meanwhile he's got a pretty good civil case against NBC, and if not civil action, then at the very least appeal-able actions based on the prejudicial and inflammatory actions of (insert name of media outlet here), Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and possibly President Obama. I'm not saying those people can't speak about a public events, but their statements could be interpreted as prejudicial. WTF are you talking about? You're just throwing in random legal terms to make word salad that has absolutely no bearing on how the criminal justice system works. You're conflating terms related to the admissibility of witness testimony with private citizens speaking in public. It's not "prejudicial" for people to have spoken about the case in the public or media. "Prejudicial" and "inflammatory" apply to whether a witness' testimony has probative value or if it's simply there to bias the jurors against the defendant beyond the facts of the case, such as prior, but unrelated bad acts like past criminal arrests and convictions. There is nothing to "appeal" related to what has been said in the media other than how it reflects upon jury selection and impartiality. Zimmerman can't appeal his conviction simply based on his case receiving media attention. He'd actually have to prove that the jury was biased by media reports to the degree that they weren't capable of objectively considering his case. Zimmerman may also be able to get a sympathetic prosecutor to bring civil rights charges against members of the New Black Panthers Party, as well as felony conspiracy and incitement to commit murder. Again, you don't know shit about the legal system. There have been no civil rights violations based on what the New Black Panthers have said or done. Civil rights violations are when someone prevents you from exercising your free and equal civil rights, like when police officers in Chicago used torture to coerce false confessions from black suspects, thereby depriving them of their 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination. Also, the NBP did not incite anyone to harm Zimmerman, but rather offered $10,000 for the "Capture and citizens arrest of George Zimmerman," which is far different from the conspiracy to commit murder you claim happened. This isn't to defend the absolutely deplorable New Black Panthers, but simply to point out that you are once again full of shit. I have no idea what happened that night, nor does anyone else here. The courtroom is the appropriate place for this to be heard and judged. I have a real problem with the suggestion that if the verdict doesn't go one way or the other there should be 'unrest'. Bullshit. Let justice be done in an open court of law, and let the law deal with Zimmerman. Yeah, except the point is that this wouldn't be in a courtroom if the police had their way. This case will only make it to trial because the public got fed up with the police bias and mishandling of the case. This is the principle reason that people are outraged by the case, as it's another example of the criminal justice system's bias against Black Americans. |
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incpenners
said @ 6:17am GMT on 12th Apr
The SYG law doesn't govern "who hit who first," it concerns the right to not have to flee from a threat to your life. As indicated by the Florida legislators, SYG does not cover cases where there is no immediate threat to you, but you actively pursue a perceived threat anyways, i.e. what Zimmerman did. If Martin hit Zimmerman, then the shooting is justified.
Show me proof that this was the chain of events. Trayvon was at worst defending himself against an adult who was stalking him You have no evidence for this assertion making Zimmerman the criminal here at every step of the game and Trayvon the victim. Only in your fertile imagination. You weren't there, you don't know any of this. All Zimmerman has to say to meet the burden of the law is, 'he hit me'. Zimmerman has (according to news reports) wounds on the back of his head and a broken nose. I'm not taking sides, I'm saying stop with your imaginary assertions and let the law run its course.
Proof?
You don't know if Zimmerman's wounds were offensive or defensive. A broken nose does not necessarily require a hospital visit or stay. ABC promoted the fact that there were no wounds on Zimmerman, when in fact there were, per the EMS report. And ABC did manipulate the video, intentionally covering parts of it with graphics. I saw it with my own eyes. This underscores my point: ABC and the rest of the media (notably CNN and egregiously NBC) pursued this with the sole intent of stirring up racial passion. Almost every sensational aspect of this case has been walked back once it's been reported. You're conflating terms related to the admissibility of witness testimony with private citizens speaking in public. It's not "prejudicial" for people to have spoken about the case in the public or media. "Prejudicial" and "inflammatory" apply to whether a witness' testimony has probative value or if it's simply there to bias the jurors against the defendant beyond the facts of the case, such as prior, but unrelated bad acts like past criminal arrests and convictions. Obama, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are not 'private citizens'. They're public figures, stoking the fires of racial discord to entice a figurative (if not literal) lynch mob to 'get Zimmerman'. They've clearly tainted the jury pool, intentionally. Zimmerman's attorneys can subpoena any and all local and network news coverage; it's overwhelmingly against him. In the end those three have helped Zimmerman, if he wants to claim he can't get a fair trial. Again, you don't know shit about the legal system. There have been no civil rights violations based on what the New Black Panthers have said or done. [uh, see below] Civil rights violations are when someone prevents you from exercising your free and equal civil rights, like when police officers in Chicago used torture to coerce false confessions from black suspects, thereby depriving them of their 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination. Also, the NBP did not incite anyone to harm Zimmerman [uh, see below], but rather offered $10,000 for the "Capture and citizens arrest of George Zimmerman," which is far different from the conspiracy to commit murder you claim happened. [uh, see below]
You're absolutely off your gourd comparing Zimmerman/Martin to the Burge case in Chicago, which concerned a corrupt cop and corrupt prosecutors conspiring in forced confessions and a coverup. There is no evidence of any such behavior here. Absolute rubbish.
She's since apologized .Yeah, except the point is that this wouldn't be in a courtroom if the police had their way. This case will only make it to trial because the public got fed up with the police bias and mishandling of the case. This is the most contemptible piece of your nonsense screed. You have no evidence of police bias and mishandling, except what you gin up in your own biasedmind. This is the principle reason that people are outraged by the case, as it's another example of the criminal justice system's bias against Black Americans. You've got it exactly backwards. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Obama wanted mob justice to prevail, while the police and prosecutors methodically investigated the case. The man's been charged; the only people capable of judging this case will sit in a jury box. |
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willrogers
said @ 8:43am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:3]
I don't have time to respond to all of your bullshit right now, but I'll respond to the easiest and most important bit to debunk. This is the most contemptible piece of your nonsense screed. You have no evidence of police bias and mishandling, except what you gin up in your own biasedmind. Actually, there is ample evidence of police misconduct, or at least ineptitude. For example, they sent a narcotics detective to the scene of the shooting instead of a homicide detective, they let Zimmerman keep the gun used in the shooting and the clothes he was wearing at the time instead of keeping them as evidence until the investigation was finished, they refused to release the 911 tapes even though many other government official in the area, including the mayor, wanted the tapes released, they lied to Trayvon's family that Zimmerman had a "squeaky clean" record, despite being arrested in 2005 for resisting arrest and battery of a police officer, and they tried to pressure a 13-year-old witness into saying that Zimmerman was the one on the ground, but the kid and his mother claim it was too dark to see who was who. And let's not act like this is the first time there has been misconduct from this police department. On 16 July 2005, two parking lot security guards, one the son of a Sanford Police Department veteran and the other a volunteer for the department, shot a black teen, Travares McGill, in the back, killing him. They claimed self-defense, and the case was dismissed in court.[8][9] In 2010, a Florida Department of Law Enforcement report noted that Sanford police Officer Christopher McClendon had misused his official position by helping a car dealer recover cars from delinquent customers in exchange for having his own car payments forgiven.[10] In February 2010, press reports indicated one officer was fired, and another, Ned Golden, Junior, was suspended for two weeks[11] after sending sexist and racist text messages on a department computer.[12] In January, 2011, the same Officer Ned Golden, Junior was assigned to retraining after approaching a car of people at a gas station with a drawn gun. Officer Golden grabbed the car when it pulled away. He then claimed the driver of the car tried to kill him by driving away while he held onto the car.[13] No charges were filed in the case. In August 2011, after an investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Golden was fired. The state report recommended he be charged with filing a false police report, official misconduct and assault with a deadly weapon. [14] No charges were filed by the State Attorney's Office.[15] Officer Golden is the son of the head of the local police union.[12] In that same month, the chief of the department, Bran Tooley took an early retirement as a result of an incident involving one of his officer’s sons. Justin Collison was involved in a fistfight caught on video tape. Press reports indicate Collison, the son of a police lieutenant, may have received preferential treatment by the Sanford Police Department. |
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incpenners
said @ 1:49am GMT on 13th Apr
"I don't have time to respond to your bullshit right now, but here's 15 paragraphs in response including everything I could copy from MSNBC." tl;dr |
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happiest_sadist
said @ 3:13am GMT on 13th Apr
[Score:2 Underrated]
Like it or not, MSNBC is still a more authoritative source than you are. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:10am GMT on 12th Apr
Nice job of leaving out that Zimmerman and his lawyer completely lied about the severity of Zimmerman's wounds, including that he had a broken nose. If he really had a broken nose he would have been sent to a hospital, not just treated and released by EMS. I've been admitted to hospital with a broken nose and other injuries. They didn't bother doing anything about the nose. I guess it's easier to re-set it later. Looking up the NHS advice, they say not to seek immediate treatment for a broken nose unless there are complications with it. |
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willrogers
said @ 10:50am GMT on 12th Apr
Not all nasal fractures need significant medical attention. If it's a minor break where the bones/cartilage are simply fractured but still in the proper position, there isn't much to be done by medical professionals. If it's a deformed break, then you'd need it to be reset, which can be done manually for some breaks, but more serious ones can require surgery. See Wikipedia Also, here's a medical expert weighing in on the enhanced CCTV video that incpenners can't shut up about. |
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cool_drool
said @ 4:15pm GMT on 12th Apr
Having broken my nose 2 times in high school playing football, and once in the service (in a bar fight in Germany), I can attest to the lack of medical attention that is needed for most broken noses. Mine were accompanied by immediate puking, swelling, bruising, and copious amounts of pain. No doctor bills though. |
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radioelectric
said @ 7:55pm GMT on 12th Apr
So you were wrong then? |
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michaelofoz
said @ 9:04pm GMT on 11th Apr
I haven't been following this very much, so I'm wondering if someone could tell me, why is this a national news matter? Were one of these people famous? Is this going to revolutionize future similar situations across the country? Was one of them a terrorist? I'm seriously wondering, because these types of crimes happen in my hometown daily. |
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azazel
said @ 9:12pm GMT on 11th Apr
Probably because it's more visceral to actually hear someone plead for their life before being murdered than reading that the victim pleaded for their life. I don't know; I'm not American so I can't say. Isn't it good that it's causing an uproar though? |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:12pm GMT on 11th Apr
It could become a national news matter depending on how the case goes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots |
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sanepride
said @ 9:29pm GMT on 11th Apr
Really this is a good question. Sometimes something manages to just grab national attention and snowball. In this particular case the Martin family lawyer did endeavor to get wider media attention in order to pressure local authorities to press charges. Here is a general timeline of the escalating media coverage. |
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michaelofoz
said @ 10:04pm GMT on 11th Apr
Ok that makes sense, thank you. But it is disappointing that it did receive so much media coverage. Its a someone normal occurrence, and now Zimmerman and his family are receiving death threats. Next thing you know, you have more riots like the ones radio just posted. But that's ok, the US is run by the media, so who would expect any less. |
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sanepride
said @ 10:23pm GMT on 11th Apr
There are aspects of this case that are worthy of national attention - most especially the question of these 'stand your ground' laws and how they are applied in different situations. What is maddening though is how the details of this particular case seem to only get more muddled as media coverage increases. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 10:43pm GMT on 11th Apr
The other aspect that is ignored is the fact that Zimmerman was approved for carrying a concealed weapon after assaulting police officers while resisting arrest. I don't care about how much time passed, but how can a guy with a proven record for violence and contesting authority get a weapons permit? |
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sanepride
said @ 10:48pm GMT on 11th Apr
There's a question with an easy answer: Florida. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 10:50pm GMT on 11th Apr
This whole episode for me has more to do with gun laws than anything else. |
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sanepride
said @ 10:53pm GMT on 11th Apr
It should have to do with gun laws. But the stand your ground law and the easily obtainable weapons permits are the result of heavy lobbying from the NRA. But somehow I expect that this aspect of the case won't end up getting the attention it deserves. |
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eIfish
said @ 11:12pm GMT on 11th Apr
Because in Florida that's perfectly legal. To be disqualified you need an non-spent imposed sentence for a felony, which he did not have. |
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GordonGuano
said @ 10:28pm GMT on 11th Apr
There's a fairish chance that, had he not been gunned down, Trayvon Martin would have been filmed pissing into the mouth of a Kardashian at some point. But seriously, you're not wrong that this kind of thing happens every day. The twist that makes it newsworthy is the police's incompetence and willful neglect bringing our two-tiered justice system to light. I feel confident that if another black man had shot Martin, he would currently be in lockup. The cops would be all, "one's in the morgue and the other's in jail! It's like a two for one coupon! Or an Offspring song!". |
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arrowhen
said @ 9:43pm GMT on 11th Apr
Cops must have finally figured out he wasn't white. |
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Anti-fuites
said @ 9:51pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:4]
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/singleton |
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aliron
said @ 9:56pm GMT on 11th Apr
This might deserve its own post. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:58pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:1 Insightful]
Reading this makes me more favour of (fairly enforced) SYG laws than I was previously. The case in the article seems obviously one of self-defense. |
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bruceski
said @ 10:24pm GMT on 11th Apr
Yeah, however one feels about gun issues (personally I think they can be obtained a bit too easily, probably a reflection of not trusting myself with one) the *intent* of the SYG laws is understandable. I still don't know if Florida's in particular is poorly written or being poorly interpreted in enforcement. |
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cb361
said @ 10:55pm GMT on 11th Apr
I don't understand the whole SYG thing. (I believe that) every country has laws that allow individuals to take reasonable measures in their self defence. What more is needed than that? |
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foobar
said @ 11:19pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:1 Insightful]
The difference is that everywhere else, the person you're claiming you killed in self defence is considered innocent until proven guilty. SYG laws presume them guilty and allow you to kill the witnesses to shut them up. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:35pm GMT on 11th Apr
Ok, in that case the article that Anti-fuites posted isn't just about SYG then. |
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Urzazero
said @ 5:28am GMT on 16th Apr
[Score:1 Underrated]
Didn't Trayvon stand his ground? Being followed in the dark by a man with a gun - wouldn't you try and defend yourself too? |
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LeavemeAlone
said @ 11:36pm GMT on 11th Apr
The difference regards to Stand Your Ground laws and typically accepted common law is that the defender doesn't have a "duty to retreat" before attacking with deadly force under common law. Critics of Stand Your Ground laws worry that it gives too much license to one person to use deadly force in a fight without exhausting peaceful measures first. Supporters say that the laws are necessary given that the primal "fight or flight" nature prevents people from thinking clearly in a threatening situation, and that the benefit of the doubt should be given to the defender. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:41pm GMT on 11th Apr
I imagine that if you want to use a gun to defend yourself it is foolish to wait until you've already been hit, as a gun is typically not useful in a close-quarters fight. I assume this is one of the reasons why SYG proponents want to move the first opportunity for legal violence to an earlier point in the confrontation. I would be interested to hear the perspective of somebody trained to carry a gun though. |
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eIfish
said @ 12:14am GMT on 12th Apr
In most countries, you can attack preemptively and still claim self defense. |
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foobar
said @ 11:17pm GMT on 11th Apr
I don't have a problem with sending people to jail even if they might have a reasonable self-defence claim. If something is worth killing for, then it's certainly worth going to jail for. |
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theolypse
said @ 1:55am GMT on 12th Apr
In context, you are saying that spending the rest of your life in a US prison is a fair price for extending that life, which will only henceforth be carried out in that prison. |
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foobar
said @ 2:46am GMT on 12th Apr
I think there are quite a lot of people on death row who would agree with that sentiment. I'm not saying that we should disallow self defence arguments, but we should err on the side of disallowing them. The vast majority of jurisdictions do. |
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theolypse
said @ 5:04am GMT on 12th Apr
And I say that, if you allow me only those options, the person who threatened my life has taken it no matter what I do. Thanks, asshole. |
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foobar
said @ 5:11am GMT on 12th Apr
Personally, given the choice, I'd rather be the guy in jail than the guy in the morgue. You still get the better side of the bargain. |
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fz75
said @ 5:51am GMT on 12th Apr
that doesn't sound right - So I was here standing in the corner minding my business, some guy decide to pop a cap in my head, and I turned around and shot him. Now I need to go to jail because I was unfortunately selected by him as a target? I some case, such as mine would be, I would have felt enough pain after killing this person, and that should be enough "punishment" for me, in case the attacker's family/friends think I deserve one? btw, IMO, this Zimmerman needs to be hung. |
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foobar
said @ 6:19am GMT on 12th Apr
Sure, but the burden should be on you to prove that you really did have to do that, because you are essentially executing them without trial or chance to challenge your accusation. If you cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person you've killed was guilty of an offence that justifies (in the circumstances) you using lethal force, it should be presumed that they are innocent. The presumption of innocence is all the more important in these cases because you've prevented the victim from giving the court their side of the story. |
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blibblob
said @ 12:30pm GMT on 12th Apr
I think you've shown pretty clearly that theolypse got trolled and it's wise to ignore everything you say in regards to self defense. |
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foobar
said @ 7:24pm GMT on 12th Apr
"What I say in regards to self defence" is how it is pretty much everywhere but Florida. |
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blibblob
said @ 9:29pm GMT on 12th Apr
That if you killed someone in self defense that you should still go to jail? That's bullshit. If I have a gun(and I think gun control should be strictly enforced) and somebody mugs me with a knife, if I have a chance, they're going to get their ass shot. And while I might feel bad about it I have no rational reason to, no obligation to, because it wasn't my actions that put me in danger. What you're claiming is that if this altercation occurred in a deserted alleyway, I deserve to go to jail. Because even if that guy was found with a knife in hand, they could just have it because they felt like it, that's still reasonable doubt under your view. Yeah, no. The slim likelihood of serial murdering lunatics who shoot people in alleyways, plant knives and wait for the cops to show up just so they can get off on self defense is far too small to give a flying fuck what you think about self defense. Since it's bullshit, charged with murder I have to provide evidence that it was self defense but I don't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. |
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foobar
said @ 2:25am GMT on 13th Apr
That's the way it is in the vast majority of jurisdictions. Look at the case in question here: Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin, killed him, and then lied about self defence. If we use your logic, it's pretty hard to convict anyone at all of murder. The killer just has to claim the victim jumped him, and he can get off. |
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theolypse
said @ 5:18pm GMT on 12th Apr
Drawing a parallel to Death Row, which you've rather a detached perspective on already, you equate the power of a single violent aggressor to the power of the state, specifically in terms of legitimacy. You reverse and undermine the civilizing effects of law by situating that kind of moral authority in anyone reckless enough to claim it. The sensible choice is not between jail and the morgue, but between the non-aggressive, law-abiding life I had been leading and the morgue. By allowing the reframing you suggest--and it is a reframing, not the natural perspective on this question--I would be already ceding any meaningful claim to my civil rights. |
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foobar
said @ 7:35pm GMT on 12th Apr
I'm afraid you just don't have a firm grounding on the topic. By arguing self defence, you stipulate to the fact that you've committed the crime in question, but should not be held responsible for it. This is not my opinion. This is the law in the vast majority of jurisdictions. |
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blibblob
said @ 9:13pm GMT on 12th Apr
No. Arguing self defense is saying that no crime occurred. Because it was justified. |
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theolypse
said @ 5:28am GMT on 13th Apr
I'm afraid you have a demonstrated inability to see past the end of your own opinions, or perhaps no compunctions regarding aggressively reframing every argument you enter in the terms most favorable to your self-satisfying pronouncements. Whichever it is, I'm happy to permit the attempt to sidetrack the discussion that I'm responding to, but only to call attention to your repeated sidestepping of the arguments presented against you. Deflect, redefine, subvert, and derail, foobar. This is how I've seen you argue the majority of times I've kept track, and it is certainly baldly exposed, here. This is a bad strategy in a forum; the record persists for later review. |
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foobar
said @ 5:00pm GMT on 14th Apr
We often see in others what we don't like about ourselves. You have a tendency to accuse others of "reframing" when they present facts that don't support your position rather than reconsider your position or refute theirs. |
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eIfish
said @ 11:17pm GMT on 11th Apr
SYG laws or Castle Doctrine? Castle Doctrine (a man has no obligation to retreat from his home rather than use deadly force) is far more common than SYG (a man has no obligation to retreat from anywhere rather than use deadly force). |
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valen85
said @ 9:58pm GMT on 11th Apr
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201001/was-the-cowardly-lion-just-masturbating-too-much Old, but may help to explain why SE has so many stupid fucking opinions. |
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radioelectric
said @ 10:00pm GMT on 11th Apr
Now now, SE has only a few widely-held stupid fucking opinions. N.B. they are the ones that disagree with what I think |
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cb361
said @ 10:59pm GMT on 11th Apr
Don't justify your masturbation. Just do it because you want to |
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bltrocker
said @ 5:04am GMT on 13th Apr
Nice |
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willrogers
said @ 12:06am GMT on 12th Apr
Marnia Robinson is a former corporate attorney with degrees from Brown and Yale who writes books about the unwelcome effects of evolutionary biology on intimate relationships and the striking parallels between recent scientific discoveries and traditional sacred-sex texts. Her cross-disciplinary perspective incorporates the insights of psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists, evolutionary biologists, anthropologists and even ancient sages. With her husband Gary Wilson, who taught anatomy and physiology for years and is a neuroscience enthusiast, she writes articles for publications as diverse as The Evolutionary Review and the award-winning anthology Toward 2012: Perspectives on the Next Age. With Gary's help, she also blogs on "The Huffington Post" and "The Good Men Project." Cupid is available on Kindle and has been published in German. Hah, a Psychology Today article from an author who isn't a psychologist and whose other articles show her blatant anti-porn bias. Nice job there, Valen. |
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valen85
said @ 12:35am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:1 Funny]
Damn it. I was hoping that this would be an easy way to become smarter. |
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theolypse
said @ 2:09am GMT on 12th Apr
Psychology Today also picked up the Wilson hackjob. They're yellow. |
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theolypse
said @ 2:10am GMT on 12th Apr
Oh. "With her husband Gary Wilson..." So this was written by the wife of the fellow who spoke so disingenuously in that video a few posts down. |
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sanepride
said @ 10:25pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:3 Good]
Breaking: Zimmerman in custody, charged with 2nd degree murder. |
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thepublicone
said @ 10:34pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:2]
See, here's the problem with all this: Regardless of what you think about the guilt or innocence of Zimmerman, the way this whole thing was handled- first by the Sanford police, and then by the rest of those running the investigation(s) mean that this entire thing is WAY past some guy shooting an unarmed kid. Its now about race, and the perceived (whether true or not) discrepancies between black and white. That is not a good place to be. Its well past the point of whether Zimmerman SHOULD be charged- You really MUST charge him now, because the alternative is race riots in cities across America. By the same stroke, you must also convict him, or the results will be the same. The fires have been stoked, and the authorities handled this in such a fucked up fashion that its a powder keg waiting to happen. Personally, I think the guy murdered the kid in cold blood, but it really doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks. Hell, it really doesn't matter at this point what actually happened: The momentum has swung well past that- its now about race, and whether or not all men are perceived as or treated as equals in the eyes of the United States of America. Either Zimmerman is found guilty of some form of murder, or the shit will hit the fan, and not just in Florida. You'll see riots in multiple cities- Detroit, LA, Atlanta, New Orleans.... basically, in whatever cities there's a real or perceived notion of inequality so far as blacks vs. whites are concerned. If you don't believe me, just think about it: Race relations are worse in the USA than they've been in decades. The economy sucks, so there's lots of angry, out-of-work folks who are upset with their situation. The jobless rates are worse, as a general rule, for minorities than it is for whites. Many perceive that the system is controlled by rich white republicans/conservatives, and manipulated to try and keep them impoverished. The only news networks in any way trying to defend Zimmerman or vilify Treyvon Martin are conservative news networks or personalities. Powder. Keg. The LA riots were caused by a bunch of white cops beating up a black man and getting off- Or, more generally, the system abusing the rights of a black man, and getting away with it. That dude- Rodney King- lived, AND he was a criminal before all this happened (Robbery, 1989) who may or may not have been intoxicated when he was pulled over. This kid got shot in cold blood, and the system tried to turn a blind eye to it, very likely because he was black- what do you think will happen if Zimmerman gets off free? It really no longer matters at this point what actually happened- you MUST convict him of something. The alternative is not a viable option. |
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sanepride
said @ 10:45pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:3 Insightful]
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that this fear of race riots is not only vastly exaggerated, but actually racist. Sure it's happened in the past, but I get a little uncomfortable with this presumption that black people across the country are a powder keg ready to explode into car-burning savages at any perceived injustice. I would remind you and other alarmists of two things - first, despite the escalating sense of injustice around the Trayvon Martin case, people have been quite civil and well-behaved in their protestations. Second, if you look at actual cased of large-scale civil unrest in this part of the world in the few decades, you will find one or two 'race riots' and maybe a dozen or more incidents of mostly white, rampaging drunken sports fans. I am predicting here and now that if Zimmerman goes to trial and is acquitted on all charges, there will be no riots of any kind. |
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granitewitch
said @ 11:01pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:1 Underrated]
I disagree- I think there will be riots no matter what the verdict is. There are far too many people out there who are constantly angry and just looking for an excuse to start a fight for this to go away peacefully. Just as any British rugby match will be followed up by hooligans going wild whether their team won or lost, someone somewhere is going to start heaving bottles and rocks before this is all done. |
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eIfish
said @ 11:29pm GMT on 11th Apr
I think you're thinking of Football. Rugby tends to be well-behaved. |
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granitewitch
said @ 11:37pm GMT on 11th Apr
You're right- I always get confused between whether football refers to soccer or rugby over there. Sorry. |
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sanepride
said @ 11:39pm GMT on 11th Apr
I will agree that there are 'There are people out there who are constantly angry and just looking for an excuse to start a fight' but I will also contend that these people are still a very small minority of the overall population. Someone somewhere will indeed start heaving bottles and rocks, and they will be small, isolated incidents. The assumption that the most obvious reaction of social outrage by certain people is to riot is at heart as ugly an assumption as what George Zimmerman allegedly assumed about the black kid in the hoodie. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 12:01am GMT on 12th Apr
I'm guessing there might be some form of protest if Zimmerman is acquitted. It might be a peaceful protest, or maybe violence, but there will be something. |
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sanepride
said @ 1:24am GMT on 12th Apr
Sure, and that's perfectly legitimate. But this assumption that there will be 'race riots'? That's not just 'something'. That's alarmist bullshit. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:34pm GMT on 11th Apr
Part of the reason why I would predict unrest is the riots in the UK last year. |
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eIfish
said @ 11:37pm GMT on 11th Apr
The rioting in England was nothing to do with Race, though. It was just a load of neds smashing shit up. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:44pm GMT on 11th Apr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan "Mark Duggan, a 29-year-old black man, was shot on 4 August 2011 by police in Tottenham, North East London, England. Police have stated that they were attempting to arrest Duggan on suspicion of planning a revenge attack following the fatal stabbing of his cousin. Police furthermore stated that he had a gun with him. Duggan died from a gunshot wound to the chest, shot by police. The reaction of some people to the apparent circumstances of his death, a public demonstration and an attack on police vehicles, were contributory factors to a riot in Tottenham,[1] which escalated into widespread riots, looting and arson in London and elsewhere." |
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eIfish
said @ 12:11am GMT on 12th Apr
Sure, that was the pretext, but the majority of the rioting was just idiots stealing shit. This was not Brixton; this was a bunch of retards stealing televisions. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:22am GMT on 12th Apr
Once it became clear that the police were not able to stop the rioting then opportunists started going in with motives that were just selfish. The anger that initially kicked it off though was over race/class issues (which are linked in many poor areas) and the police. One of the arguments that was used by rioters to justify what they were doing was issues with racism/classism and the police. The Guardian didn't help when they fanned the flames by claiming (wrongly) that Duggan was unarmed. Humorist columns (2/3rds of what you gave me) are not serious analysis. |
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eIfish
said @ 12:35am GMT on 12th Apr
No, but they are funny. And they essentially repackage serious analysis into a more digestible form. The police certainly are racist. But the grievance was much more to do with the police's bullying, harassment, and erosion of civil liberties (which started under Blair, but Cameron has done nothing to sort out) than it was to do with police racism or racial tension. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:51am GMT on 12th Apr
I disagree. Young black people felt disproportionately victimised by the police and the Duggan shooting acted as a focus for their anger. This is explored in another article from the Guardian's analysis of the riots. I've got to say that I lost a lot of respect for the Guardian over how they reported the Duggan case at the time. |
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eIfish
said @ 2:19am GMT on 12th Apr
Far from young black people, it was anyone in a hoodie. These were cosmopolitan, multicultural riots. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:04am GMT on 12th Apr
Yes, it was also a class issue. But, like I said, in the areas where it started race and class are tightly bound. It also separated along racial lines in some areas, such as Birmingham where tensions between black and asian communities flared up (resulting in deaths). |
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eIfish
said @ 2:01pm GMT on 12th Apr
I thought that that one just happened to be along racial lines: people who happened to be of Asian ethnicity were defending a shop that people that happened to be of Black ethnicity were attempting to loot? |
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radioelectric
said @ 7:29pm GMT on 12th Apr
No, there has been a tension in some areas of Birmingham for a while between the Asian people who tend to own businesses and the Black people who tend to be more disenfranchised. (painting VERY broadly) |
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eIfish
said @ 7:35pm GMT on 12th Apr
Fair enough; I've not been to Birmingham in decades. |
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LeavemeAlone
said @ 11:54pm GMT on 11th Apr
The demonstrations for Rodney King were civil until the cops, three whites and one Hispanic, were acquitted. Also, at least the COPS had a reason to pull Rodney King over for driving recklessly in a CAR, something that this case doesn't have. |
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sanepride
said @ 1:47am GMT on 12th Apr
It's worth noting that the King acquittal was a culmination of long standing, well established pattern of institutional abuse by LAPD. That particular toxic stew had been simmering a long time. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:03am GMT on 12th Apr
I've got to say that my bet is going to be the cynical one every time. I'd like to be surprised. |
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thepublicone
said @ 1:29am GMT on 12th Apr
From my POV, expecting riots and/or demonstrations should Zimmerman be found not-guilty is not racist in the least: I grew up around Detroit, and have seen what happens when you put people through systemic racism for 60+ years. Its real (want to take a guess what the unemployment percentage of black vs. white is in Detroit City? Double (19.0%-40+%)) and so is the anger. One could make a very good argument that's its racist for someone to expect a people to sit idly by and take the erosion of their status as citizens after having spent years fighting for something that should have been theirs without a struggle in the first place. Last time I checked, in the States, all were created equal, but suddenly, its racist to suggest anger is justifiable or unavoidable if that right is removed or lessened in comparison to others? Although I don't live there now, I still maintain contact with several folks from a variety of races from there. Tensions are high everywhere, and people feel like peaceful protests/displays and attempts at bureaucratic change are being blatantly ignored or dismissed. Black, white, or any other race, if you've ever lived anywhere near a city like Detroit, you'd understand. Besides, at the root of all of this, its not about being black, but rather the sense of injustice and the perception that someone is being treated differently because of the colour of their skin. This could easily have been a Latino in Arizona, or an Arab in Tennessee. The point was that this has been allowed to ferment and boil, and its reached that point where you can cut the tension with a knife. Now, as for "race riots"; other than, well: Detroit, Watts, the Freedom Rider attacks (plural), Los Angeles, that time (times?) the National Guard was called into the de-segregation of high-schools..... and that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I dug, there'd be a LOT more smaller ones, especially during the 1960s. See, my girlfriend is black, a doctoral scholar on African-North American history, and a damn smart woman. I get sucked into a lot of discussions with her, and some of it rubs off. Given the choice, I'll take her knowledge of the civil rights movement, the mistreatment of slaves and their descendants, the idea and concept of systemic racism, etc over some random internet musings any day. After all, she studies it for a living. She- and many of her colleagues- have been following this whole thing closely, and they agree that there stands a better than average shot of shit going bad if Zimmerman is acquitted. They fervently hope it doesn't, but they look at the situation, and they see what I see. Plus, we're Canadian (she's a dual-citizen), and are on the outside looking in, which gives us a different perspective. (Plus, the sports riots you mentioned mostly occur up here, in Vancouver and Montreal- we take our hockey seriously.) She and her colleagues also understand group mentality enough to know that all it takes is one or two fucking idiots doing something dumb in the name of something people can rally around to start a riot. Idiocy is not confined to race, and neither is the physical expression of outrage. Group-think is a powerful thing, and what starts out with peaceful intentions can quickly turn ugly. Considering we're talking about America here, and a deeply divided America that is still, for all intents and purposes, in a deep recession during a time of high racial tension, what do you think the odds are that, in a volatile situation like this, there's not an idiot or two- or one-hundred- in those demonstrations? Have you happened to see the interviews with the New Black Panther Party? The folks that, despite having nothing in common but a name with the original Black Panthers nor any real input in the situation, are demanding- on an international stage, no less- violence in retaliation for the Martin killing? It doesn't matter that almost no one agrees with what they're saying, all it takes is the right switch, and shit goes up. I think not at least acknowledging that possibility is ignorance on a grand scale. At least as much as saying that anyone who believes violence is possible here because a group of people that have been given the shaft in increasing amounts and might just be tired of it is somehow a racist. |
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sanepride
said @ 2:41am GMT on 12th Apr
OK, I'll acknowledge the possibility. My problem is with those who assume it's inevitable, or even likely. There is a definite supposition there that a certain demographic will behave very badly if things don't go to their liking. |
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foobar
said @ 4:51am GMT on 12th Apr
If we tax the rich, they'll close all their businesses. |
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erich wiess
said @ 1:28pm GMT on 12th Apr
“If you look at actual cased of large-scale civil unrest in this part of the world in the few decades, you will find one or two 'race riots' and maybe a dozen or more incidents of mostly white, rampaging drunken sports fans.” What a preposterous comparison: Do you know any “incidents of mostly white, rampaging drunken sports fans” akin to the LA "race" riots? Material losses between $800 million and $1 billion Widespread looting Targeting stores owned by Korean and other Asian immigrants 4,000 soldiers and Marines 3,600 fires 1,100 buildings burned Fire calls coming once every minute at some points Fifty-three people dead 2,000 people injured |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:42pm GMT on 11th Apr
I've got to reiterate that it's also largely about how the media wanted to spin it in order to whip up a storm. Look at what NBC did. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 10:53pm GMT on 11th Apr
I just heard 911 calls about a fight between the two, and then a gunshot. It seems clear that there was a conflict because apparently there were more than one or two calls about a fight, but who started it seems to be the crux of the matter. The SYG defense is bullshit because Zimmerman was expressly told to STOP following Martin. Maps of the gated community and a time line will be of extreme importance. |
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eIfish
said @ 11:38pm GMT on 11th Apr
The SYG defense is bullshit because Zimmerman was expressly told to STOP following Martin. Does that matter in court? |
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mrcucumber
said @ 11:51pm GMT on 11th Apr
I would think a direct order from a 'police' dispatcher, a representative of the prevailing authority would hold up in court. But wtf do I know. Fair never really matters, anyway. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:57pm GMT on 11th Apr
"A direct order"? Float back down man. |
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willrogers
said @ 2:36am GMT on 12th Apr
Again, you're just playing with semantics to manufacture a defense for Zimmerman while you completely misrepresent both the facts of the case and what other people have written here. Even if what the operator told Zimmerman wasn't sufficient to be a "direct order" for you, it still establishes that what Zimmerman did was not only inadvisable, but also unnecessary. Therefore, Zimmerman loses the right to his affirmative defense under the Stand Your Ground law because there was no threat to himself or others, which is apparent from the conversation he had with the 911 operator. Zimmerman created the confrontation with Martin by stalking him and thereby loses him affirmative defense by having instigated the conflict, while Trayvon was actually defending himself against a stalker, as evident by him running away from Zimmerman, which both Zimmerman and Trayvon's girlfriend confirm happened. |
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foobar
said @ 4:39am GMT on 12th Apr
There are multiple issues. The SYG law prevents someone from being charged with defending themselves. You rightly point out that Zimmerman cannot apply this, since he took an aggressive action prior to Martin. Florida law, in opposition to almost all sane jurisdictions, requires prosecutors to disprove a self defence claim (effectively stripping the victim of their right to be presumed innocent, and encouraging people to kill any witnesses). |
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willrogers
said @ 12:01am GMT on 12th Apr
It does, because it shows that Zimmerman can't claim ignorance of the consequences of his actions, e.g. he can't claim that he didn't know that following Trayvon, who Zimmerman believed to be a criminal, would result in a potentially deadly altercation. "Stand your ground" only covers you when the threat comes to you, not when you intentionally move towards the threat, and the 911 operator's warning clearly indicates that a civilian purposefully advancing towards a threat is wrong and dangerous. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:07am GMT on 12th Apr
Reading the transcript I can't see the bit where the 911 operator starts giving Zimmerman legal advice. Actually, if you look at the whole thing the operator says they don't need him to follow Martin, but then later on in the call the operator is happy for Zimmerman to continue following Martin so that he can update the police with where he is. |
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willrogers
said @ 2:31am GMT on 12th Apr
I've seen this same bullshit semantic argument elsewhere trying to search for any excuse that insulates Zimmerman for blame. If you were to actually link to the transcript instead of just talking out of your ass, you'd see that the 911 operator thought that Zimmerman had stopped following Trayvon. The operator was in no way supporting Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon, as the operator clearly took Zimmerman's "ok" to mean that he was taking the advice. So, the operator wasn't "happy for Zimmerman to continue following Martin so that he can update the police with where he is," the operator wanted to know where Zimmerman was so that he could meet up with police, not so they could apprehend Trayvon together. Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ... Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black. Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing? Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring... Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area... Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses. Dispatcher: OK... Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me. Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now? Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me. Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male. Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks? Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens. Dispatcher: Late teens ok. Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is. Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here? Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else. Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse. Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse? Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running. Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running? Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards? Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [unintelligible] Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that. Zimmerman: Ok Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? Zimmerman: George...He ran. Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name? Zimmerman: Zimmerman Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from? background image Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones] Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at? Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of? Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address. Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area? Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What's your apartment number? Zimmerman: It's a home it's 1950, oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is. Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? Zimmerman: Yeah that's fine. Dispatcher: Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there okay? Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at? Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that's no problem. Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it? Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones] Zimmerman: Yeah you got it. Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I'll let them know to call you when you're in the area. Zimmerman: Thanks. Dispatcher: You're welcome So, it's pretty obvious that the operator understood Zimmerman to have followed the advice and not followed Trayvon, but rather being relatively stationary relative to the location Zimmerman gave the operator. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:16am GMT on 12th Apr
Semantic arguments are appropriate when you're trying to work out what each party in the conversation meant. Personally, I don't take "we don't need you to do that" as "don't do that". It means "you are not required by us to do that", but obviously the interpretation will depend on the tone etc. I think that Zimmerman telling the operator that he was going to keep moving after the call and that he'd want the police to go to where he is was a pretty clear indication that he was still following Martin. It's certainly not as clear as you were claiming. |
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willrogers
said @ 9:33am GMT on 12th Apr
I don't agree that it's as ambiguous as you are making it out to be (I think it's pretty clear that the operator understood Zimmerman as not having a clear location , but it's certainly nothing like what you made it out to be before I posted the entire transcript. You wrote: Reading the transcript I can't see the bit where the 911 operator starts giving Zimmerman legal advice. Actually, if you look at the whole thing the operator says they don't need him to follow Martin, but then later on in the call the operator is happy for Zimmerman to continue following Martin so that he can update the police with where he is. The bolded part is just absolute bullshit. No matter how ambiguous you think the think the conversation is, the operator is obviously NOT "happy for Zimmerman to continue following Martin so that he can update the police with where he is," but rather trying to establish where Zimmerman is so the cops can meet him when they get there. Zimmerman may have intended to have the cops meet him wherever he followed Trayvon to, but that was certainly not what he told the operator and doesn't seem to be what the operator understood. Just look at this section from the transcript: Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there? Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at? Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of? Zimmerman: I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address. Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area? Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible] Dispatcher: What's your apartment number? Zimmerman: It's a home it's 1950, oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is. Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? Zimmerman: Yeah that's fine. Dispatcher: Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there okay? Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at? |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:52am GMT on 12th Apr
You only need the last line: "Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?" |
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willrogers
said @ 10:27am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:2]
Right, but what about the "ok" after he's told not to follow? Isn't that evidence of acquiescence? Honestly, are you still going to keep up with this facade that your are merely "asking questions" instead of manufacturing a defense for Zimmerman, which is what you're actually doing? |
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radioelectric
said @ 7:55pm GMT on 12th Apr
Right, but what about the "ok" after he's told not to follow? Isn't that evidence of acquiescence? Nope, not necessarily. It can mean many things such as "I hear you" or "I understand I am not required to do this". As can: "We don't need you to do that." Proving that Zimmerman took it in some way other than as a direct order to stop following Martin just requires that the interpretation was reasonable. There is not a "one true" interpretation of those words that were said, and even having it would get you nowhere. Honestly, are you still going to keep up with this facade that your are merely "asking questions" instead of manufacturing a defense for Zimmerman, which is what you're actually doing? Who do you think I am? This is not how lawyers prepare for a trial. |
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radioelectric
said @ 11:39pm GMT on 11th Apr
"The SYG defense is bullshit because Zimmerman was expressly told to STOP following Martin." You don't have to do what an operator tells you. /shrug |
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mrcucumber
said @ 11:54pm GMT on 11th Apr
But it can inform jury as to the motive of the assailant, yes? |
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LeavemeAlone
said @ 11:56pm GMT on 11th Apr
The writers of the Stand Your Ground bill have said on record that chasing after someone should cause you to lose your Stand Your Ground protection. At that point, it becomes one person shot another person in a fight that the aggressor started. |
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willrogers
said @ 11:58pm GMT on 11th Apr
Exactly. It was Trayvon, not Zimmerman, who was defending himself. Trayvon was being stalked by a vigilante with a gun and simply defended himself when he felt threatened and the vigilante murdered him. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:01am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:1 Insightful]
Fuck the trial, they ought to just ask you. |
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willrogers
said @ 2:13am GMT on 12th Apr
Right, so my opinion on the issue (backed with actual links and evidence) means that I'm somehow being presumptuous and inflexibly dogmatic, but your opinion is completely valid and not at all spurious and lacking support? |
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micham18
said @ 7:39am GMT on 12th Apr
Siding with Will on this one. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:34am GMT on 12th Apr
Thanks for the update. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:26am GMT on 12th Apr
You're talking about the events of the night as if it's already a settled thing and you definitely know everything about what happened. That is presumptuous. You are not aware of all of the evidence pertaining to the case, and for that which does exist you have not seen it presented in a critical courtroom environment. My opinion is that the trial is the appropriate time to work out whether he is innocent or guilty under the law. There is a parallel argument to be had about the morality of what Zimmerman and Martin did, which will doubtless come out in differing shades of grey for each of them (as these things always do). So yes, I have been attempting to make pains to say "we don't know" and you've been saying "he's a murderer!". In that case you are correct in what you say above. Where I've been "defending Zimmerman" (actually in one case explicitly saying that it was what I would put forward as a lawyer defending him) it's an exercise in trying to get closer to the truth of what happened, out of a mixture of curiosity and distaste for blatant injustice. |
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willrogers
said @ 9:57am GMT on 12th Apr
Do you really not understand that what you've been doing here is asserting your opinion as if it were fact just as you've been accusing me of (such as your fallacious assertion that the 911 operator not only knew that Zimmerman was following Trayvon, but that they were happy that Zimmerman was doing it to update them on Trayvon's location) and making allusions to documents and evidence that you fail to link to yourself? Meanwhile, I've provided a plethora of links to the information I refer to and which support the assertions I've been making. If you still come out with the judgment that you're comments are just saying "we don't know," then you're being incredibly obtuse and dishonest. Yes, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, but you have repeatedly taken my words out of context to bolster your position with a strawman of what I wrote. My other comments here on the matter are mostly dealing with elements of the case, such as arguing that he isn't legally eligible to use the Stand Your Ground law in his defense. Arguing about the particulars of the case and how they would relate to a criminal defense and court case is not the same as just saying "he's a murderer!" |
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radioelectric
said @ 10:08am GMT on 12th Apr
"Do you really not understand that what you've been doing here is asserting your opinion as if it were fact just as you've been accusing me of (such as your fallacious assertion that the 911 operator not only knew that Zimmerman was following Trayvon, but that they were happy that Zimmerman was doing it to update them on Trayvon's location) and making allusions to documents and evidence that you fail to link to yourself?" That's obviously a matter of how you interpret what was said in the 911 call. I've actually asserted very little. I just checked all of my comments here and most of them are asking questions or various qualified opinions and conditional statements. Meanwhile, I've provided a plethora of links to the information I refer to and which support the assertions I've been making. I have provided some links. Fortunately the information on this case is probably the most googleable thing in the world right now. If you still come out with the judgment that you're comments are just saying "we don't know," then you're being incredibly obtuse and dishonest. I'm not saying "we don't know", I'm arguing "we don't know" to people who believe they already have a full idea of what happened. That necessarily involves criticising the views they hold. |
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foobar
said @ 7:46pm GMT on 12th Apr
A trial in a fair and unbiased court is the appropriate time to work if he is guilty or not (not if he is innocent, that's not what courts are for). The trouble is that Florida doesn't have a fair and unbiased court with regard to this case. The system that they do have has shown rather extraordinary bias in favour of Mr. Zimmerman, and so the only verdicts they can issue are 'guilty' or 'corrupt'. |
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willrogers
said @ 11:56pm GMT on 11th Apr
Potentially, but the law is stand you ground, not advance your ground. If you feel that a person is a large enough threat that it necessitates calling the police, then you shouldn't be following this person. Zimmerman created the deadly scenario by not standing his ground, but rather purposefully advancing towards danger, knowing full well that it could result in a confrontation that might have deadly consequences. This is exactly why the 911 operator told him not to follow Trayvon, which means he was informed that following was dangerous and inadvisable, meaning that he doesn't have a defense that he didn't know following Trayvon was a bad idea. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:01am GMT on 12th Apr
From my understanding of what happened, nothing (potentially) illegal occurred until the confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin. Up to that point this could have gone either way. If Martin had killed Zimmerman would you be saying that it was Zimmerman's own fault for trying to find out what he was up to? |
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LeavemeAlone
said @ 12:41am GMT on 12th Apr
You are right, nothing potentially illegal happened until the confrontation. That isn't the legal issue. The legal issue is whether Zimmerman had Stand Your Ground protections when he shot Martin. The case that the DA would probably make is that Martin had not posed a credible threat to someone's safety beyond acting odd. Zimmerman notified the police of a suspicious person, Martin then went to confront Martin against the advice of a police representative. At that point, Zimmerman expressed to a third party that he was chasing Martin when Martin ran away. Once that happened, Zimmerman would lose SYG protections as he was the aggressor by chasing after Martin instead of staying put and waiting for the police when there was no apparent danger to Zimmerman. It isn't a slam dunk case, but there is enough gray area to at least try it. |
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radioelectric
said @ 12:48am GMT on 12th Apr
I see where you're coming from. It depends on whether you interpret Zimmerman following Martin as a threat. If I were defending Zimmerman I would point to Martin's decision not to run when it was suggested to him by his girlfriend as evidence that he did not feel threatened. |
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willrogers
said @ 12:57am GMT on 12th Apr
Bullshit. Trayvon did try to run away from Zimmerman, but he just couldn't get away, so he decided to try and defend himself. Nice job, trying to manufacture a defense for Zimmerman with misinformation and downplaying the threat of a full grown adult stalking a 17-year-old. |
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radioelectric
said @ 1:11am GMT on 12th Apr
Is the relevant information there in a video? I can't see it on my phone. What I had read was that Martin's girlfriend told him to run and he didn't. How much physical difference do you think there is between being 17 and an "adult"? I can tell you I felt much tougher at 17 than I do today. Barring the extremes (children, elderly, disabled) any human being could represent a credible threat to any other. |
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pleaides
said @ 1:23am GMT on 12th Apr
No need to be snide will, we're all just having a chat, during which radioelectric's been thoughtful and sincere. |
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willrogers
said @ 2:11am GMT on 12th Apr
Actually, he's not being "thoughtful and sincere," he's repeatedly mischaracterizing both what actually happened and what people here have said. I've provided links supporting my claims and his responses have been "Well, I read something different" without actually supporting any of what he's said. That's not arguing in good faith. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:33am GMT on 12th Apr
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/20/448092/trayvon-martins-last-phone-call-moments-before-tragic-death-undermines-account-killer-gave-to-police/ "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.” Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin. “Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. The first paragraph was the bit I remembered. If the text contains all of the information from the girl then the bolded section may be a media confabulation or it may be the actual events. People defending Martin's character would say that Zimmerman must have caught up with him. Zimmerman's account must be that this was the time when Martin came up behind him. It is likely impossible to know for sure. |
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willrogers
said @ 10:41am GMT on 12th Apr
Once again, you take something that is actually evidence against your position and somehow twist into support. This time, you're taking an ear witness and twisting to mean, "Well, yeah Trayvon did run away from Zimmerman, but this could totally be when he somehow transported himself behind Zimmerman and attacked him," and then you add your perpetual "We'll never know for sure." Do you not understand how Zimmerman actually corroborates what the witness is attesting to here? Do you not understand that, had Zimmerman NOT followed Trayvon, Trayvon would have been far away from Zimmerman, making it even more impossible to be a threat to him? This bit is the crux of the issue and establishes how the "threat" was created by Zimmerman, making him the one at fault, even if it was your case of dual self-defense. |
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radioelectric
said @ 7:50pm GMT on 12th Apr
"Do you not understand how Zimmerman actually corroborates what the witness is attesting to here?" Is it bad for Zimmerman if the evidence from the witness lines up with what he's claiming? Please elaborate. Once again, you take something that is actually evidence against your position and somehow twist into support. This time, you're taking an ear witness and twisting to mean, "Well, yeah Trayvon did run away from Zimmerman, but this could totally be when he somehow transported himself behind Zimmerman and attacked him," and then you add your perpetual "We'll never know for sure." The text I posted was half-evidence, half-editorialising. The bits I bolded were not evidenced, they were added after the face to make a coherent story. This makes them not facts. All we know is what the girl heard. |
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radioelectric
said @ 8:06pm GMT on 12th Apr
Oh, and it explicitly IS evidence for my having read that Trayvon didn't run when his girlfriend told him to, even if he did do so later on. |
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pleaides
said @ 2:15pm GMT on 12th Apr
By your standards of proof you've fallen well short. Maybe he's arguing in good faith and he just doesn't agree with you? Can you PROVE he's not arguing in good faith? I love your walls of text and copious links Will, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us need to jump through the same hoops just to prove to you that we actually mean what we say. Nor does it mean that the rest of us ought to politely step aside lest we fall short of the standards of proof that you just shat all over in your eagerness to lambast radioelectric. |
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radioelectric
said @ 8:32pm GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:1 Insightful]
It's not a matter of proof. Aside from producing the material evidence of the case like the transcripts etc. there is not a possibility of definitively proving what happend, and even making a reasonable "best guess" is likely impossible without the availability and depth of analysis that a courtroom provides. Will is welcome to attempt to construct a picture of what he thinks happened but I can then criticise how stable or valid the various inferences required to construct this picture are (the way to avoid the criticism is to not pretend to know what happened). At the moment the presentation is chaotic and incoherent which makes precise criticism difficult. It is also accompanied by a delightful side-dish of personal abuse which doesn't bother me because I am not personally invested in the guilt or innocence of George Zimmerman, whereas it seems clear that Will is. It does make me wonder though whether Will's estimation of his own debating skills is distorted by his ability to simply be sufficiently unpleasant that people no longer want to discuss things with him. |
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willrogers
said @ 12:51am GMT on 12th Apr
From my understanding of what happened, nothing (potentially) illegal occurred until the confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin. Up to that point this could have gone either way. That's not what I was saying at all. My point was that Zimmerman cannot use the Stand Your Ground law as an affirmative defense for shooting Trayvon because he violated the principles of the law by purposefully advancing towards a threat, with the very likely possibility of a confrontation. If Martin had killed Zimmerman would you be saying that it was Zimmerman's own fault for trying to find out what he was up to? Pretty much, as Zimmerman had already called the cops, meaning that the cops were available to "find out what Trayvon was up to." Zimmerman was perfectly safe within his car and had absolutely no justification to stalk Trayvon. Zimmerman put himself in the position of being in danger by stalking someone he supposedly believed was a criminal. Conversely, Trayvon was justified in defending himself against an armed man who was stalking him from a car. Zimmerman presented a much clearer threat to the completely unarmed Trayvon than Trayvon did to the armed Zimmerman. |
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radioelectric
said @ 1:03am GMT on 12th Apr
Doesn't the transcript suggest that Zimmerman believed Martin might be armed? Your argument has a little internal tension because the first half requires that Martin present a clear threat to Zimmerman (to present the case that he was wrong to follow Martin) whereas the second half requires that Martin represents an insufficient threat to Zimmerman to justify self defence. I have a bigger issue with another section though. You claim that Zimmerman gives up his right to defend himself when he intentionally puts himself in danger by following Martin. Is this to pick on some particular proviso in the law? Or is it a general principle? For example, would I give up my right to self defence by entering a bar I knew to be full of criminal types? By entering a hostile neighbourhood? By leaving the safety of a well lit area? By going outside? |
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willrogers
said @ 2:10am GMT on 12th Apr
Once again, you fail to understand what I've written. Doesn't the transcript suggest that Zimmerman believed Martin might be armed? Your argument has a little internal tension because the first half requires that Martin present a clear threat to Zimmerman (to present the case that he was wrong to follow Martin) whereas the second half requires that Martin represents an insufficient threat to Zimmerman to justify self defence. Firstly, it's not about whether Trayvon was a threat or not, it's about what Zimmerman believed. He believed that Trayvon was a criminal and was threatening enough to call the police. If you perceive someone as enough of a threat that you call police, then you have a duty not to intentionally stalk the person, which is why the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon. You don't have the right to intentionally put yourself into a confrontation with a perceived threat so that you can take advantage of Stand Your Ground laws, which has been made abundantly clear by the actual authors of the law. Zimmerman himself complained to the 911 operator who told him not follow Trayvon that, "These assholes always get away," which shows that he was worried that Trayvon was going to flee, not that Trayvon was going to harm him or anyone else. Secondly, I in no way implied that Trayvon was a threat to Zimmerman, but instead indicated that he was a potential threat to him if he pursued Trayvon. Had Zimmerman not pursued Trayvon, there would not have been any threat to his life. Whether something is a threat or not is not a binary quality. Something can be a potential threat if you were to confront it (as Zimmerman did to Trayvon), but is not an imminent threat (a threat that is an immediate and unavoidable risk to the health and well-being of yourself or someone else) as long as you don't pursue it. The Florida SYG law covers the latter, not the former. I have a bigger issue with another section though. You claim that Zimmerman gives up his right to defend himself when he intentionally puts himself in danger by following Martin. Is this to pick on some particular proviso in the law? Or is it a general principle? Again, you are (intentionally?) misunderstanding me. Self-defense is about stopping an imminent physical threat to oneself or others and it explicitly precludes creating a confrontation to manufacture a scenario. Again, this is why the authors and sponsors of the Florida SYG bill have come out against Zimmerman's claim that SYG covers his shooting. You can't actively pursue a threat and then claim self-defense after you confront the threat and instigate an altercation. If that were allowed, you'd every person with a grudge start a fight with someone they dislike so they can use it as a legal pretext to shoot them For example, would I give up my right to self defence by entering a bar I knew to be full of criminal types? By entering a hostile neighbourhood? By leaving the safety of a well lit area? By going outside? You're unfairly equating two entirely separate concepts. Just a general risk of "shit happens" by simply living your life outside your home is in no way similar to actively pursuing something you perceive to be a threat if you confront it. You're also ignoring Trayvon's right to defend himself against Zimmerman. Why are you constantly defending Zimmerman's right to "defend himself" against Trayvon, but not at all defending Trayvon's right to defend himself against someone stalking him? Why is it that you, in another comment" tried to blame Trayvon for not running away (even though he actually did try to run away)? Doesn't Trayvon have a right to stand his ground against a stalker? Who is the greater threat to whom, the pedestrian walking down the street or the guy stalking the pedestrian from his car? You're bending over backwards here to give Zimmerman not only the benefit of the doubt but also an active defense, while you are simultaneously looking for any opportunity to blame Trayvon for what happened to him. |
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radioelectric
said @ 9:51am GMT on 12th Apr
If you perceive someone as enough of a threat that you call police, then you have a duty not to intentionally stalk the person, which is why the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon ... Zimmerman himself complained to the 911 operator who told him not follow Trayvon that, "These assholes always get away," which shows that he was worried that Trayvon was going to flee, not that Trayvon was going to harm him or anyone else. Well in that case, if Zimmerman did not perceive Martin as a threat (but merely as a suspicious potential criminal) then would he lose SYG for chasing him? (Even if Martin did then become a threat?) Again, you are (intentionally?) misunderstanding me. Self-defense is about stopping an imminent physical threat to oneself or others and it explicitly precludes creating a confrontation to manufacture a scenario. I am not intentionally misunderstanding you, I am arguing with what you are claiming. That objection requires that there was some gradient of "physical threat" that gradually increased as Zimmerman followed Martin rather than a sudden spike from "not really any threat" to "life-threatening" in the confrontation. My question was necessary because if it's a general principle then it allows an argument over when threat was felt, whether threat could be predicted, etc. Otherwise, if there was a specific "no following people" clause this would be cut-and-dried. You're also ignoring Trayvon's right to defend himself against Zimmerman. Why are you constantly defending Zimmerman's right to "defend himself" against Trayvon, but not at all defending Trayvon's right to defend himself against someone stalking him? Why is it that you, in another comment" tried to blame Trayvon for not running away (even though he actually did try to run away)? Doesn't Trayvon have a right to stand his ground against a stalker? Look at my reply to Anklyosaur above. You are making the assumption that the law, properly interpreted, describes a complete and proper way for people to behave in all situations. Further, that in this situation if all parties followed the law they would both protect themselves from harm and prevent any harm befalling other people. My contention is that this is not the case in a messy real world with incomplete information (both to Martin and Zimmerman at the time and when the case is examined in court) and popularist laws being interpreted by fallible judges. As I've said before, it is reasonable to put forward that at the time of the confrontation they both felt the other presented a threat and they both acted in self defense under SYG. In this case, the survivor of the confrontation there would be not guilty under the law. Sentencing one of them for murder would not bring the other one back, and the initial presumption is always of innocence. You're bending over backwards here to give Zimmerman not only the benefit of the doubt but also an active defense ... See my other reply. ... while you are simultaneously looking for any opportunity to blame Trayvon for what happened to him. I don't think I've done that anywhere. |
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willrogers
said @ 10:30am GMT on 12th Apr
Well in that case, if Zimmerman did not perceive Martin as a threat (but merely as a suspicious potential criminal) then would he lose SYG for chasing him? (Even if Martin did then become a threat?) He's still advancing towards someone, against police advice, he believes to be a criminal suspect (e.g. "These assholes always get away") enough that he calls the police. He loses SYG coverage the second Trayvon is walking away from him and even moreso once Trayvon starts running away, as that is an unambiguous sign that he is not a threat to Zimmerman. SYG means that you don't have to flee, NOT that you can pursue someone who is fleeing, which is supported by the law's authors, as I have linked elsewhere. I am not intentionally misunderstanding you, I am arguing with what you are claiming. That objection requires that there was some gradient of "physical threat" that gradually increased as Zimmerman followed Martin rather than a sudden spike from "not really any threat" to "life-threatening" in the confrontation. My question was necessary because if it's a general principle then it allows an argument over when threat was felt, whether threat could be predicted, etc. Otherwise, if there was a specific "no following people" clause this would be cut-and-dried. Ironically this is just more evidence that you are misinterpreting what I have said. The SYG law is about imminent threats and someone running away from you is unambiguously NOT an imminent threat to you. The only time a legitimate imminent threat would have come up is in a direct, physical confrontation, which would have never occurred if Zimmerman did not stalk Trayvon and then leave his car. Do you not understand that the bolded portion of what you wrote actually supports what I've been saying, that Zimmerman is the one who caused the threat to increase and created the violent scenario that lead to Trayvon's death? Do you not understand that this is a key element in establishing Zimmerman's guilt, as he is showing that he advanced toward a threat, thereby increasing the chances it would lead to a violent ending? Also, what part of the "Stand" in "Stand Your Ground" is unclear? Look at my reply to Anklyosaur above. You are making the assumption that the law, properly interpreted, describes a complete and proper way for people to behave in all situations. Further, that in this situation if all parties followed the law they would both protect themselves from harm and prevent any harm befalling other people. My contention is that this is not the case in a messy real world with incomplete information (both to Martin and Zimmerman at the time and when the case is examined in court) and popularist laws being interpreted by fallible judges. As I've said before, it is reasonable to put forward that at the time of the confrontation they both felt the other presented a threat and they both acted in self defense under SYG. In this case, the survivor of the confrontation there would be not guilty under the law. Sentencing one of them for murder would not bring the other one back, and the initial presumption is always of innocence. Do you not understand how Zimmerman and Trayvon are not equal in that scenario? Trayvon was being stalked by a man in a car who he had previously tried to run away from, but was unsuccessful. If, as you assert, they are both acting under the assumption of self-defense, Zimmerman is the one at fault and therefore susceptible to criminal charges because he created the situation where violence resulted by stalking Trayvon. This is why the law is Stand Your Ground. You can't pursue someone and then claim an SYG defense after you confront them. All SYG covers is that you don't have an obligation to flee potential threats, you can stay where you are and defend yourself even on a public street. I don't think you really understand that last part or how it relates to this case. It wasn't about degrees of threat, there absolutely was no threat to Zimmerman while he was on the phone with the 911 operator and had he follow police advice to not follow Trayvon, he would have remained out of threat's reach. Thus, it was Zimmerman's actions which actually created the threat that he allegedly reacted to and is now trying to use as a pretext for a SYG defense. Also, do you not see the difference between the quality of our arguments? In other comments I've provided links to the actual writings of SYG law's authors and sponsors and they clearly and explicitly indicate that the law doesn't cover advancing towards someone who might be a threat if you confront them. Conversely, your arguments are either hearsay, unfounded allegations, contradictory to the evidence you are supposedly citing as support, or manufacturing ambiguity with your "questions" to the specific intent to benefit Zimmerman. Seriously, it would be nice if you provided ANY support for your assertions other than "welp, you don't know better than me, just wait for court!" |
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radioelectric
said @ 7:48pm GMT on 12th Apr
You are writing far more than is necessary to get to the point of the question I was asking. "Do you not understand that the bolded portion of what you wrote actually supports what I've been saying" No, because you bolded a section involving two mutually contradictory statements that I wanted you to differentiate between. I understand your argument as follows: 1) Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin. 2) Zimmerman recognised that Martin was not a threat to him so long as he stayed away. 3) Zimmerman approached Martin anyway, entering a situation that could become dangerous. 4) Zimmerman loses SYG defense because he moved towards a potential threat. My response was that the classification of a behaviour as "moving towards a potential threat" covered an enormous number of situations that you would not consider to jeoporadise somebody's right to self defense. That's why I wanted to know whether following somebody explicitly excluded you from SYG. The crucial difference that I think I can identify between the way that me and you are looking at this is that I didn't consider the confrontation to have started until Zimmerman and Martin were actually next to each other, whereas the window that you are looking at it in stretches back to when Zimmerman started following Martin. N.B. I don't think the Stand Your Ground law would be critical to Zimmerman's defence in court provided he can support his version of the events. |
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radioelectric
said @ 8:12pm GMT on 12th Apr
"manufacturing ambiguity with your "questions" to the specific intent to benefit Zimmerman." I'm putting forward the appropriate level of ambiguity to people who feel certain that they know what happened and what the just response is. |
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pleaides
said @ 11:34pm GMT on 11th Apr
He's pleading not guilty I just heard |
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sanepride
said @ 1:52am GMT on 12th Apr
No surprise there. |
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granitewitch
said @ 1:52am GMT on 12th Apr
I would never have expected otherwise. |
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bbqkink
said @ 11:54pm GMT on 11th Apr
[Score:2 Insightful]
The guilt or innocence of Zimmerman will be determined in court like it should have been from the beginning. To me, this more of an indictment of the old boy network than anything else. Zimmerman's dad is a retired judge. The police chief and the DA both were at the crime scene..never happens. From statements made by he lead detective his investigation was over ruled and no charges were filled until the public outcry was nationwide. The other thing is the combination of concealed fire arms and this ill conceived stand your ground law is a recipe for a lot of dead poor people. |
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erich wiess
said @ 12:26am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:2 Funny]
"We do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition." Special prosecutor Angela Corey |
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lilmookieesquire
said @ 12:29am GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:1 Funny]
* or by murder (HIYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO) |
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theolypse
said @ 1:58am GMT on 12th Apr
In light of actual evidence, there is very little you could have said that is less relevant or useful. |
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* (The Asshole FKA Morris)
said @ 4:52pm GMT on 12th Apr
!0 to 1 it does not go past the pre trial hearing. Had the prosecuter opted for manslaughter...probably....bt the demand for proof that the killing was intentional coupled with the light burden of proof that Zimmerman felt his life was in danger makes it a hard case to go forward |
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foobar
said @ 7:50pm GMT on 12th Apr
Prosecutors can issue multiple charges, can they not? That may well be an option for the court. |
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* (The Asshole FKA Morris)
said @ 8:51pm GMT on 12th Apr
Sure, but the other charges would not also be homicide related....you won't see a second degree murder charge tagged with a manslaughter charge or a 1st degree....aggravated assault, sure... Not sure how it works in the US, in Canada, if the first swing at the bat by the Crown is a miss, they can file another attempt, eithe with the same charge with new evidence or a different charge. Isn't it in the US, if they try once and fail they cannot file again? |
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foobar
said @ 9:04pm GMT on 12th Apr
I'm pretty sure manslaughter is frequently offered as an option to the court alongside murder. If they don't do that, they can't then go back and try again, but they can give the jury/judge the option of several charges. |
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mrcucumber
said @ 5:03pm GMT on 12th Apr
I honestly wonder if Zimmerman would have followed Martin had he NOT had a gun. Something tells me there would have been no confrontation. |
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* (The Asshole FKA Morris)
said @ 8:54pm GMT on 12th Apr
The prosecutors must prove Mr. Zimmerman's shooting of Mr. Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will and counter his claims that he shot Mr. Martin to protect himself while patrolling his gated community in the Orlando suburb of Sanford. Mr. Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defence at a pretrial hearing to prevent the case from going to trial. There's a “high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case,” Florida defence attorney Richard Hornsby said. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/zimmerman-makes-court-appearance-in-trayvon-martin-shooting/article2400094/ |
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Bodnoirbabe
said @ 9:55pm GMT on 12th Apr
According to Zimmerman via the call to 911, Trayvon ran away. At that point, the SYG law should not be in effect. Zimmerman chased Trayvon and initiated a confrontation. Trayvon ran away without threatening or doing anything to Zimmerman before he gave chase. SYG does not enter into this shit. |
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dietcoke
said @ 10:58pm GMT on 12th Apr
[Score:-2]
Unless you have personally wrote a letter, or filed a complaint, or did ANYTHING to stop violence against native americans, you are a racist full of shit loser. The ONLY reason this man is being arrested is because he shot a black, if he had shot a native american there would be no outcry from the world. Last night 2 native teens were shot buy a white cop in SD. They were teenage boys walking down a road carrying fishing poles and a minnow bucket. The cop said he "thought the fishing poles were rifles" how many of you are screaming in portest? How many even saw this? It never even made national news....know why? because it was natives and not a black guy, about time native americans get the same respect that blacks easily are getting. |
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KingPellinore
said @ 12:07am GMT on 13th Apr
I love how I'm getting called racist by a guy who refers to Trayvon as "a black". |
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chold_numa
said @ 3:42am GMT on 13th Apr
English may not be his/her first language. I hear this construction occasionally from non-Native speakers, eg. a Japanese, an English vs a Japanese person, an English person. The rule doesn't apply for an Italian, a Russian. It's not necessarily malicious. |
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eIfish
said @ 3:06pm GMT on 13th Apr
Also the construction does work, grammatically, in "a native American", because "native American" is a noun phrase, while "Japanese" is an adjective. So it would be reasonable, but incorrect, to extrapolate it to "an English". |
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sanepride
said @ 12:48am GMT on 13th Apr
[Score:2 Insightful]
Maybe no one is screaming in protest because no one knows about this incident. Post a link to a news item, let's get some outrage going here. |
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dietcoke
said @ 11:00pm GMT on 12th Apr
yea, i have typos in that, but I know the boys who were murdered, both were Eagle Scouts with a full deck of awards for merit. Very good young men, but do you care enough to go for this cop? I am betting not one of you will even bother to send money to the familys for his funeral, let alone write a letter in protest or contact media to get this cop jailed. |
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eIfish
said @ 3:08pm GMT on 13th Apr
The incident you describe is shocking and, if true, worthy of national attention. Find some reliable sources* and make a post of it. * "I heard that some guys did something somewhere" is not particularly compelling... |
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ComposerNate
said @ 10:45am GMT on 13th Apr
Let's demand criminal charges against the hoodie. |