Thursday, 17 April 2008

Death threats to Chinese student for showing support for Tibet.

quote [ Harassment of Wang Qianyuan has gone off-line, and in fact precedes this post by several weeks. (...)
The fenqing are going insane. (...) it looks like the FBI will become involved. Her parent's apartment in Qingdao was attacked with rocks, and they are in hiding. ]

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Youth mobilised by blody regime to promote itself and the olympics. Gee, where did I see it before.
[politics] [by Dalej@6:37pmGMT] [+5 Informative]

Comments

edga alunpo said @ 6:49pm GMT on 17th Apr
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I find this hilarious. They're not only cursing her but the western way of life too - IN ENGLISH!


HAHAHAHAHA
hpeg said @ 11:31pm GMT on 17th Apr [Score:1 Insightful]
You are taking the piss, right? You are, aren't you? Please tell me you are taking the piss.
Escaeva said @ 9:14am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:-1 Flamebait]
because Chinese is to complex for a moron like you to understand.
Escaeva said @ 7:13am GMT on 19th Apr [Score:-1]
So we can make fun of the Chinese for speaking English but I get -1 for countering such a stupid comment?
Oh ok!
Yeah, your right dude, Chinese people are lawly because they speak english to make fun of the west, what a bunch of stupos, man lol they speak english to make fun of us lol.

Would you perfer if they commented about Western society in Chinese?
I mean, we bash and bash them in english, why can't they bash us in English?
English is the universal hate language after all!
Naruki said @ 11:03am GMT on 19th Apr
Do you TRY to be a moron, or were you dropped on your head?

You were downmodded for attacking somebody without cause.

edga alunpo made an insightful comment about the irony of using Western language to condemn the Western way of life.

That is not the same thing as attacking somebody for something they didn't do (hint: you just did that).

You _also_ really need to learn the difference between attacking all members of a race/ethnicity and all members of a forum, especially when the attack is based on personal experience rather than scientific polling.

You are foaming at the mouth about every single negative comment here as though it is insulting all Chinese people. Very few if any of the commenters here are doing that, and it makes your reaction look insane.

Seriously: insane.

Stop it.
Escaeva said @ 1:26pm GMT on 19th Apr [Score:-1 Overrated]
Don't take things so seriously
and if edga's comment is insightful
then mine are religous texts
MmmFiber said @ 6:49pm GMT on 17th Apr
Are you attempting to draw parallels between The People's Republic and a historic movement of sheep? Very violent sheep.
Shirobake said @ 8:07pm GMT on 17th Apr [Score:1 Funny]
...Omigod it's happening all over again! We've learned nothing! NOTHING!
lycurgus said @ 4:26am GMT on 18th Apr
Oh god! Mutton monsters! Deliciously horrifying!
phlegm said @ 6:51pm GMT on 17th Apr
Wow. Wasted no time with this one; went straight to the Nazi comparison.
*golf clap*
mao tse helen said @ 7:02pm GMT on 17th Apr
From Wikipedia:

However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.
Narrenschiff said @ 7:04pm GMT on 17th Apr
DON'T BE SUCH A NAZI
EPT said @ 7:07pm GMT on 17th Apr
And thus arose on the internet the phenomenon known as Godwin's Law Nazis.
sacrelicious said @ 7:09pm GMT on 17th Apr
don't be such a phenomenazi.
EPT said @ 7:15pm GMT on 17th Apr
I can't help it. I was held for a while in a phenomenation camp.
leswilkerson said @ 11:19pm GMT on 17th Apr [Score:1 Funny]
Karma police, arrest this meme.
Karma Police said @ 11:16am GMT on 18th Apr
This is what you get, when you mess with us...
-_- said @ 1:08pm GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 Underrated]
-_- said @ 1:10pm GMT on 18th Apr
-_- said @ 1:14pm GMT on 18th Apr
-_- said @ 1:16pm GMT on 18th Apr
-_- said @ 1:25pm GMT on 18th Apr
sacrelicious said @ 7:09pm GMT on 17th Apr
you of all people should recognize how unnecessary it is to compare china to the nazis when their own actual political roots are more oppressive and bloody than even the nazis.

or need I remind you how ruthless a dictator Helen was?
phlegm said @ 2:33am GMT on 18th Apr
If anything people should compare PRC with Stalin and the gang and not the Nazi SS for these reasons:
1) Stalin killed his own citizens, like the Chinese.
2) The West was pretty much okay with that one too (not that the German genocide was a priority of the West either, but at least we did come out against it after the fact).
3) Stalin didn't really discriminate against any religion when it came to mass murders. He was more concerned with threats to his power.

And the Nazi references are almost always improperly used. It's just that most people have no knowledge of history. There's almost always a much for accurate murderous monster reference to use than Hitler.
Naruki said @ 9:20am GMT on 18th Apr
Hitler killed his own citizens, too. Religion was just one factor that he used in determining whom to slaughter, and it was actually just a way to consolidate power.

The lack of Soviet-hosted Olympics just before they start invading other countries kind of breaks down the similarities with the Nazis, and it makes your substitution less appropriate.
valen85 said @ 9:54am GMT on 18th Apr
fail
Naruki said @ 12:29pm GMT on 18th Apr
Motherfucker. ;-)
shiney things said @ 12:02am GMT on 18th Apr
i sometimes think that if a dictator actually started invading europe and killing of jews, any comparison to hitler would be laughed at and dismissed as Godwins Law.
phlegm said @ 2:35am GMT on 18th Apr
If people keep making mindless references to Nazis and the horrors that occurred and gradually weakening the force such a comparison should have, I think so too.
shiney things said @ 2:58am GMT on 18th Apr
i didn't actually mean to make commentary on this or any actual situation. just musing.
sacrelicious said @ 6:57pm GMT on 17th Apr [Score:1 Insightful]
the thumb image confuses me.

is it likening the PRC to nazi germany? what is the point of that when the more obvious, direct, and dare I say correct comparisons to Stalinist Russia from whence sprang the foundations for communist china, and their own history of maoist rule do just fine for illustrating the choking oppressiveness that lies barely dormant (if dormant at all) at the heart of the chinese state?

I call this gilding Godwin's lily.
EPT said @ 7:04pm GMT on 17th Apr
Is Godwin aware you're molesting his lily?
sacrelicious said @ 7:10pm GMT on 17th Apr
yeah, and he's being a real goose-stepper about it too!
MmmFiber said @ 7:16pm GMT on 17th Apr
First hurting people, now it's geese? Outrageous.....
Dalej said @ 7:19pm GMT on 17th Apr [Score:1 Insightful]
The comparison is between Olympics in Nazi infested Germany in 1936, and Olympics in China Dictatorship (cause we all know its neither "communist" or "peoples") in 2008.

I see it from this perspective:

Before the WW2, the "west" could do everything to stop the Nazis grow in power, and did nothing, untill it had to fight for its very existence.

While I don't think China will ever wage war on "the west", I do believe it is a serious threat to world stability and safety of those countries that are still free, because very soon they will be the ones dictating the rules on the world forum.

Once again an evil, blood thirsty regime is not only being allowed to grow in power, but is also passionately supported by the "west".

Thus I believe that the comparison of 1936 olympics to olympics in 2008 is acurate.
EPT said @ 7:33pm GMT on 17th Apr [Score:1 Insightful]
Before the WW2, the "west" could do everything to stop the Nazis grow in power

The West had just been through the most gruelling war in history to date. It was trying to avoid a repeat.
Dalej said @ 8:33pm GMT on 17th Apr
And chose the best tactic to do so, didn't it.
Polyphemus said @ 10:13pm GMT on 17th Apr
My opinion is that WW2 was inevitable and the policy of appeasement gave the allies a chance to prepare, as Germany had been preparing, for war.
But people do like to poke fun and Chamberlain's "peace for our time".

Good tactic in Civ is to Have an advanced mobile Army and wait for the bad guys to attack you, then take their Land in righteous fury.
My foreign Policy is based on Board Games.
arctan said @ 5:08am GMT on 18th Apr
Well, except that during the period of appeasement the appeasers were purposely *not* preparing for war. That's what appeasement entailed.
Dalej said @ 5:44am GMT on 18th Apr
Polyphemus - an interesting point, but, you are missing info.

Poland WAS one of the allies. It had a signed deal - should Germany attack us, France and UK will give immediate back stab to Germany's western border.

It is a little known fact, that UK and France signed this deal with Poland, because they ware afraid Hitler will sign a similar deal with them, like he did with Hungarians (grate friends of Poland since ages, then and today), and Romania. Gullible Poles thought UK and France, those *jewels* of freedom and justice, will step in should they be attacked.

That never happen. What did happen, was Europe wide propaganda of "those troublesome Poles are guilty themselfs" and "we don't want to die for Gdansk" campains.

So they didn't. They died for their own cities later on.

And now the history repeats itself.
Perhaps there is some truth to the saying that only those who suffered in the past learn from history's mistakes.
EPT said @ 12:26pm GMT on 18th Apr
Ah, so that's the source of your problem. That the rest of the allies were reluctant to strike immediately. Compare the speed of movement in WWI and the 5-week collapse of Poland in WWII, and you might figure out why France and the UK didn't think of invading Germany at dawn September 2. Everyone in the world was astonished at the speed of the collapse of Poland.

Don't forget either that opposing the Maginot line, the Germans had their own line of fortifications, and the allies were not politically willing to invade through neutral countries as Germany shortly did. With an amphibious or aerial invasion not tenable and being unable to move troops effectively into the Baltic, plus Germany being surrounded by a ring of neutral countries the only way into Germany was through it's fortifications opposite the Maginot line. Add in that it took weeks to mobilise a national army at the time and by that time the start of winter would be coming on, and you can perhaps understand that there weren't any French boots treading on German soil on September 2.

I mean, yeah, mistakes were made, sure. But bitching about the Allies not saving Poland in 5 weeks is just stupid. It took two or three weeks just to mobilise a national army in those days.

Compare the invasion of Iraq - the most mighty military the world has ever known, backed by the most powerful economic and industrial powerhouse, informed by the most detailed surveillance dreamed about by military commanders, fighting against an opponent of vastly inferior technical ability, supply and experience... took 5 weeks to claim Iraq.

So if you're bitching about the UK and France not doing enough to stop Germany, what about Poland? Given that they had an increasingly aggressive and militaristic neighbour, why weren't they engaged in their own military reform? Why weren't they carving out their own political niche in negotiations?
Naruki said @ 12:30pm GMT on 18th Apr
Forget about Poland.
Jewbacchus said @ 12:56am GMT on 19th Apr
Kvetch, kvetch, kvetch.
EPT said @ 1:16am GMT on 18th Apr
Given the pyrrhic victory that WWI was combined with the more isolationist political position of the industrial powerhouse of the US, colour all that with in the thirties the allies believed that warfare would still be somewhat trench-based with all it's attendant horrors, I can understand the reluctance to dive into war with "the other half of Europe" again.

Don't judge them using your benefit of hindsight.
cb361 said @ 2:30am GMT on 18th Apr
They had also spent the past twenty years blaming the last generation for getting them into the 'War to end all wars'. Chamberlain knew that another war was likely, but wasn't going to let later generations think that he hadn't done everything possible to avoid it. Ironically we now blame him for not being militarily proactive enough.
Naruki said @ 9:11am GMT on 18th Apr
"Don't judge them using your benefit of hindsight."

But isn't that exactly what you just did?
EPT said @ 11:52am GMT on 18th Apr
No, I only mentioned information available to them at the time. I didn't make a judgment on the resultant efficacy of their chosen tactics.
Naruki said @ 12:28pm GMT on 18th Apr
"I can understand the reluctance to dive into war"

Sounds like a judgement to me.
EPT said @ 8:55pm GMT on 18th Apr
You never fail to amaze me at how, despite years of debating online, you still fail to understand then basic premise of arguments.
Naruki said @ 12:49am GMT on 19th Apr
You are easily amazed at things that only exist in your own head.

Try logic. It'll do wonders for your ability to understand an argument.
EPT said @ 8:47am GMT on 19th Apr
purple monkey dishwasher
valen85 said @ 1:58am GMT on 18th Apr
Evil bloodthirsty regime = insert me trolling you for 50 replies

do it yourself, i'm tired and lazy
Amul Muzz said @ 2:42am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 Insightful]
How many -1 Trolls you want?

I could get started on that for you...
valen85 said @ 3:17am GMT on 18th Apr
well
in my defense, i would have to say that i believe most of the stuff that I say but i just can't help adding in the words "mother fucker"to my replies
Amul Muzz said @ 4:28am GMT on 18th Apr
Well, Motherfucker generally negates -1 mods. It's just that awesome.
Amul Muzz, Jr. said @ 9:13am GMT on 18th Apr
So why do you always get out your belt when I call you a motherfucker, Dad?
Betty said @ 3:57am GMT on 18th Apr
define "Evil" please
lycurgus said @ 4:24am GMT on 18th Apr
"unpopular"
sanepride said @ 4:37am GMT on 18th Apr
"Hillary"?
Nihil said @ 5:57am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 Funny]
"Republican"?
Pepegi said @ 7:27pm GMT on 17th Apr

„While I don't think China will ever wage war on "the west"(...)"

I think it may happen sooner than we think.
sanepride said @ 12:53am GMT on 18th Apr
Economic war maybe. A shooting war would just be counter-productive.
sanepride said @ 12:53am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 Underrated]
To elaborate: Not a good idea to kill your best customers.
fforw said @ 11:24pm GMT on 18th Apr
sounds to me like a business model just one step ahead of what the music industry does.
valen85 said @ 2:00am GMT on 18th Apr
it would be the other way around

when the US finally loses all grip on its hegemonic status, it'll freak out and pull some shit on China.
valen85 said @ 1:54am GMT on 18th Apr
omg
i'm all trolled out and i can't squeeze another ounce of trolling out of me
marcee said @ 1:59am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 Funny]
Of course, this behavior speaks badly of the Chinese, all of them degenerates that resort to death threats at the slightest provocation. Veritable bullies, this people, they don't know how to maintain the proper etiquette on internet, and all of them troll internet forums instead of maintaining educated and civil conversations, as we do in the West. We don't have these behaviors,we never threat each other and Internet is a place of happiness and harmony where everyone is nice with each other.

No sir, I tell you. We should ban them from the internets! All of them!
valen85 said @ 2:02am GMT on 18th Apr
as we can see on SE, there are idiots everywhere, even in China.
Hactar said @ 3:46am GMT on 18th Apr
Check your sarcasm detector
valen85 said @ 4:04am GMT on 18th Apr
oh no
i wasn't actually commenting on what he said
well... a little

i'm just saying that there are idiots in china
and relating that to idiots on se from a few posts back
arctan said @ 5:19am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:4 Insightful]
I think this speaks about as badly for China as, say, the blacklisting of the Dixie Chicks a few years ago. Of course, the scale involved is still monstrously different -- the Dixie Chicks were big celebrities saying something during a public performance, while this is a college student who went to a protest. Also, I don't remember hearing anything about the Dixie Chicks' families having to go into hiding so other people from the South wouldn't vandalize their property. (I could be wrong, though.)

Look, this is the thing -- I can go to a protest at an American school brandishing signs that say "AmeriKKKa" and "A country founded on blood" and "FUCK BUSH FUCK THE FOUNDING FATHERS FUCK AMERICA" and come off basically okay. Maybe not if I did it in a public square, but *on campus* I can wave whatever damn signs I want, and the College Republicans might troll my Facebook page but I won't have to get *FBI protection* because my safety is in danger.

Moreover, if I go to school in France, I can wave signs like that in France and not worry that the school's club for overseas Americans will single me out to put my name all over the Internet so that my parents back in California will have to go into hiding.

This is mainly because, as an American, even if I go into extreme protests against the US I will have lots of people in America publicly supporting me. ANSWER and MoveOn can legally exist, can defend their actions in court, can collect money openly. No such thing exists in China, and so the danger you court by being pissy in China is much higher.

And, tellingly, this comes with Chinese people, especially the exported expats, being way more inclined to march in ideological lock-step. It's fucking *scary* debating a fenqing and hearing them call you an actual "race traitor" and look at you with murder in their eyes for criticizing the PRC, for having American citizenship or for having parents from Taiwan. It's *frightening* imagining the kind of ideological indoctrination that would lead someone to drop a class just because the professor has an ROC flag in it.

And, yes, I see it elsewhere with members of other countries, including the USA -- see the Dixie Chicks fiasco -- but no, it's not all the same. It's much more uniform and much more aggressive from the fenqing who come to the US to study than with any other group of international students I can remember interacting with.

It's really like saying that because Christian Right groups in the USA get pissy about "Piss Christ", that we as a country are therefore no different from the Middle Eastern countries where riots and death threats erupted over the Danish Muhammad cartoons.
Narrenschiff said @ 6:13am GMT on 18th Apr
YES, THANKS
steele.ero said @ 10:28am GMT on 18th Apr
Just don't ever catch a game changing baseball at a world series game.
Hactar said @ 3:50am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:5 Insightful]
The article is interesting. Your commentary sucks.

+2 for article -1 for dumbassery.
(now in the correct thread!)
Adam said @ 5:01am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 WTF]
I've been trying to talk to Chinese people in Chinese on the web, and I've discovered that the average Chinese webforum user is perhaps even more vile and racist than /b/tards.

My favorite quote, translated for your pleasure:
"Four-legged hairy beasts should not use human language. You should use the language of animals."

You know how you can't talk to religious freaks about, for instance, separation of church & state, because they just won't listen and start yelling instead? That's what we're dealing with here. The Chinese people I've spoken to feel free to say absurd things about "Western country," of which they know nothing, while simultaneously yelling at me for daring to say anything about China because I'm not a Chinese. And their knowledge of their own history is just appalling. They think that both the Mongol and Manchu empires were both "China," as if that word meant anything back then. If I hear any bullshit about "China's 5000 years of glorious history," I'm going to go to Wal Mart specifically so I can pee on something made in China.
arctan said @ 5:24am GMT on 18th Apr
They get even madder at you when you reveal you *are* Chinese. The use of the term "hanjian" (race traitor) is liberal on boards like this.

If you have any sense of historical context, it's really quite shocking to see how easily they'll whip that term out, because back in the olden days it was one of the worst terms of abuse possible, restricted to people who actually committed high treason against the state to one of China's traditional enemies (selling out to the Japanese in WWII, for instance).

It's pretty much equivalent to how hardcore right-wing pundits in the US have started using the term "treason" for anything that comes from the Left. Only it's different, because in China this "hardcore right-wing punditry" is ALL THE PUNDITRY. Pundits on the other side don't get Internet access and frequently go to prison.
valen85 said @ 6:09am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:2]
yeah i have to agree with you guys
as much as i defend china as a state and as a culture, i hate dealing with individual mainland chinese people. There are scum-bags everywhere and china just so happens to have 1.6 billion people. If the percentages of these people are the same around every country, that's still a lot of scum bags.
valen85 said @ 7:56am GMT on 18th Apr
and no
i'm not one of those people
i'm willing to listen to criticism when i feel that it's informed

and i'm a bastard so everything arctan says is not informed. despite it being informed.
valen85 said @ 10:04am GMT on 18th Apr
lol, betty, are you from hong kong?
Naruki said @ 12:32pm GMT on 18th Apr
No, betty is from planet Republican Apologist.

She thinks all those scumbags are liberals.
Escaeva said @ 9:14am GMT on 18th Apr
nice generization dick tard, I guess because black dudes steal more shit ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE CRIMINALS.
fucking idiot.
valen85 said @ 9:55am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:1 Funny]
omfg

i think this guy just stole my job.
Naruki said @ 12:41pm GMT on 18th Apr
"because black dudes steal more shit"

Say what? Do you mean:
1) the monetary value of stolen goods is higher for blacks than whites?
2) blacks steal bigger things
3) the stuff blacks steal is shittier than what whites steal?
4) blacks steal more items than whites?
5) something else?

I think 1 is clearly wrong. 2 may be valid unless you consider corporations that were hostile takeovers to be things, because those are really big. 3 is possible. 4 hmm... Doubtful. 5?

I'd like to know which of those you meant that doesn't make your own statement look like a false stereotype.
Escaeva said @ 4:24am GMT on 19th Apr
You moron, I was being sarcastic to make a point.
I was pointing out that racism can apply to anybody.
Naruki said @ 10:31am GMT on 19th Apr
You call ME the moron when YOU are the one who cannot make a decent analogy?

Tell me, do you understand the concept of irony? If so, do you see how it applies to you?
Adam said @ 4:12pm GMT on 18th Apr
When I see a single poster in one of these forums ask if maybe Tibet shouldn't be free after all, or when I see a Chinese person speak up in support of a poster who says something in support of Tibet, or for that matter *anything* other than a foul-mouthed, personal attack, then I'll retract that statement.

But that's not what I'm seeing, so die in a fire.
Escaeva said @ 7:17am GMT on 19th Apr
Very intelligent Adam!
You generalize "Chinese people" to the one forum you go to! I'm sure it is a very accurate depiction of the true opinion of over a billion people.



This is pathetic, can anyone else see this is all blatant racism fueled by Sinophobia?
I guess it is genetically ENCODED into the Han Chinese DNA sequence to naturally hate Tibetans and all other ethnicities.
That makes so much sense now, thanks Adam.
Betty said @ 1:16pm GMT on 19th Apr
"I'm going to go to Wal Mart specifically so I can pee on something made in China."

Drink up because that's a lot of pee.
Wadysseus said @ 6:53am GMT on 18th Apr
Heh heh, wang.
Escaeva said @ 9:04am GMT on 18th Apr
China compared to Nazi Germany? give me a fucking break, this is not the cold war for Christ's sake. Every government party does stupid shit, but don't compare genocidal regimes to the CCP.
Nazis = Far Right
Commies = Far Left, or now "Socialism with Capitalist Characteristics".

Don't be fooled morons.
Our Media, our goverments, for the FIRST time are facing a rising giant that is not under the control of Western Powers.
Japan, very much so still USA's lapdog, same with South Korea.

China will rise. Deal with it, that's history, time for "white people" to actually deal with a global community.
arctan said @ 9:47am GMT on 18th Apr
Commies = Far Left, or now "Socialism with Capitalist Characteristics".

Er, if you have any understanding of what actually changed in the 1980s, you'd understand that "Socialism with Capitalist Characteristics" is a euphemism for "Capitalism".

There is nothing in any sense "Left" about China anymore. Every single policy the government gives a shit about has more in common with what the USA and Europe would identify as right-wing authoritarianism than the Left.

Fuck, China is a country that went from having universal socialized medicine to a goal to now having basically no health insurance for the poor whatsoever (less than 8% coverage in rural areas). The capital gains tax in China is LOWER than that in the USA (China is at a flat 10% rate, the USA is at 15% after Bush's cuts). In many ways, if you want a laissez-faire capitalist utopia, China is it -- as long as you don't step on the government's political sovereignty or military power.

We have a word for when the government aligns itself with private profit-seeking entities and seeks to maximize economic productivity with little regard for civil rights or social welfare, with the ultimate goal being the strength of the state and the prestige of the nation. It's called "fascism". And post 1980s China is probably the one country in the world *most* deserving of that overused term. (Fine, fine, it's more like Fascist Italy or Spain than it is like the almost cartoonish genocidal evil of the Nazis. The negative connotations of the term still deserve to apply.)
valen85 said @ 10:04am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:-1]
you spit fire but it's not the full exact truth.

there are huge differences between a fascist government compared to the ccp including most of the cultural requisites that china simply does not have. I'm sure you realize this and have a creative way to dismiss it already.

And honestly, it can be argued that every country in the world looks to strengthen itself and build prestige and I think it's the responsibility for all governments to do this for its people.

But thanks for pointing this out for the previous poster; i was thinking of doing the same but you beat me to it.
EPT said @ 12:31pm GMT on 18th Apr
... are you saying the trains in China run on time?
Naruki said @ 12:45pm GMT on 18th Apr
The trains in China run mainly on the vagina.

Hmm, that works so much better for Spain.

The trains in Madrass...
EPT said @ 12:54pm GMT on 18th Apr
Would that be a Chew Chew Train?
Nihil said @ 8:47pm GMT on 18th Apr
You are clinging to pathetically inadequate and outdated categories like "Right" and "Left" (which were pretty stupid in their own time as well) to describe the greatest political issues in the world.

"Communism <-> Socialism <-> Capitalism <-> Fascism

Going Right is Evil; going Left is Good, unless you slaughter too many people to get there."

I would pull my child out of any primary school that taught them such a gross oversimplification.

You are like a medieval rank-and-file soldier running to fight a modern war with only a pike, a shield, and a rock-solid certainty of who is on which side. That is very painful to read.
Escaeva said @ 9:12am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:-1 Flamebait]
This Post reminds me of why SE is starting to suck ass.
Listen to you Xenophobic fucks, dissing the shit out of the Chinese. Some kind of global community we are building, what happened to objective views?
The Chinese have been pushed around, humiliated, and exploited by westerners, the Japanese, and corruption for decades now.
who would not be bitter?
Read about the Opium Wars,
The Rape of Nanking,
The Unequal Treaties,

Educate yourself to understand why things are they way they are.

MASS MURDER? any of you have proof of this "mass murder" happening in China against any religion? Stop suck the media's cocks and your own "white pride" fantasies, China will NEVER act aggressively towards us.
When has China "invaded" anywhere or declared war on anyone? Don't use BS like Tibet as a example.

DEMOCRACY as we know it in the "west" will not work in current China. People seem to forget that most of the population still lives in abject poverty, China does not want to turn into a shithole like Russia did after the collapse (and befrore I guess) of the USSR. Too many poor people, gangs and crime would engulf the country.
Use your heads, morons. There is no genocide in China, just classic ethnic strife. Happens in every country at some point in history,
stop sensationalizing shit.
arctan said @ 9:41am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:5 Informative]
Listen to you Xenophobic fucks, dissing the shit out of the Chinese. Some kind of global community we are building, what happened to objective views?
The Chinese have been pushed around, humiliated, and exploited by westerners, the Japanese, and corruption for decades now.

...And their own leaders, but who's counting?

Read about the Opium Wars,
The Rape of Nanking,
The Unequal Treaties,

Er, you might want to put those in order, buddy. Two 19th-century events randomly glommed together with a 20th-century event isn't a good way to gain historical perspective.

You might also want to read up on the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

Educate yourself to understand why things are they way they are.

I think I have a pretty good handle on *why* things are the way they are. That doesn't make the way things are *okay*.

MASS MURDER? any of you have proof of this "mass murder" happening in China against any religion?

"Mass murder" is strong language. It is not a historically contestable fact, though, that in 1950 the PLA invaded with force in Chamdo, and that Tibet lost a lot of people in the ensuing conflict (estimates from the PLA themselves hover around 80,000, estimates from the Tibetan government-in-exile hover around 1 million). Nor is it contestable that of the 2,500 monasteries that existed in Tibet prior to the invasion only 70 remain, and that over 90% of all the monks who once lived in the country were killed or exiled.

As for other religious persecution, what do you think the Gaoyang Forced Labor Camp is *for*? There are at least 250,000 people in those fucking camps and more than half of them are Falun Gong "conspirators". The UN has reported over 300 cases of people being tortured since 2000 related to Falun Gong -- and the UN only ever gets access to a tiny fraction of what goes on in those camps. (Notice that there is no actual evidence of Falun Gong ever doing anything illegal or destructive beyond being a big weird cult; Scientology is on record as doing much worse things than Falun Gong and still exists in the US, because the US believes people have these things called "rights".)

And Christianity, while it actually gets a better deal than other religions, doesn't get that great a deal. The PRC raids house churches and basement religious meetings pretty much whenever it feels like it. (I've *met people* from house churches in China, don't fucking challenge me on this.) Every year you hear another story about the PRC deciding to knock down a random Catholic church and having cops go in with nightsticks to break up the parishioners.

Stop suck the media's cocks and your own "white pride" fantasies, China will NEVER act aggressively towards us.

1) I'm not white. I'm Chinese. I care a hell of a lot more about this issue than I probably would if I weren't Chinese.

2) I spend a lot of time thinking about what happens if China acts aggressively toward us. Of course, the "us" in that sentence is Taiwan, not the USA. And no, I have a hard time being super-confident China will never act aggressively toward Taiwan when they do aggressive things like shell the coastline every few years.

When has China "invaded" anywhere or declared war on anyone? Don't use BS like Tibet as a example.

Tibet is BS... why? Tibet is a country. China invaded it. It technically was "liberating" Tibet, sure, rather than phrasing it as a "war", much as with the USA's "liberation" of Iraq.

But no, when the PLA comes in with troops and shoots tons of people in order to dissolve an existing government and replace it with a new one, *that's a war*.

Plenty of examples to go 'round. Korea is another good one. (Funny how Korea was nothing but China "advising" the Koreans, Vietnam-style, when they talk to international sources about it but the "victory" of the Korean War was a total patriotic smash at the time.)

And, of course, if you actually want to go back to pre-modern history -- which fenqing just love to do when they talk about the "5000-year glorious history of the Chinese people" then the claim that China never invaded anyone or declared war on anyone is laughable. Just ask a Uighur, Tibetan, Korean, or any of the other people China steamrolled over in the past few millennia. They'll laugh, if a little bitterly. Imperial China is East Asia's equivalent of Rome. Their *lifeblood* was in declaring war and invading places.

DEMOCRACY as we know it in the "west" will not work in current China. People seem to forget that most of the population still lives in abject poverty

That poverty is no longer nearly as abject as it once was. Valen85 keeps pointing this out. It's a common fenqing trait of doublethink that they simultaneously want to point out how amazingly rich and successful modern China is and then talk about how poor and starving it is as an excuse for why it doesn't protect basic rights and freedoms.

China does not want to turn into a shithole like Russia did after the collapse (and befrore I guess) of the USSR. Too many poor people, gangs and crime would engulf the country.

Russia had no period of super-fast economic growth equivalent to the post-Mao reforms of the 1980s before Gorbachev brought down the Iron Curtain. It's just a bad comparison -- too many of the factors are different -- and it's also a foolish point to try to make that because one country failed to make the transition from totalitarianism to democracy without economic problems, democracy must be itself a *bad thing*. (I'll tell you right now -- for all the supposed problems of the "post-communist kleptocracy", I would much rather live in Moscow now than live in Moscow in 1985.)

Use your heads, morons. There is no genocide in China, just classic ethnic strife. Happens in every country at some point in history,
stop sensationalizing shit.

Bad things happen everywhere all the time. Therefore I shouldn't get upset when bad things happen right in front of me. Especially when people are defending it in my name (the name of "the Chinese people", a people of which I consider myself a member).

Whatever. Calling the situation in Tibet "genocide" is, yes, overstating it. Saying that it's "just ethnic strife" and therefore *okay* is horrible. The amount of "ethnic strife" in, say, Kosovo was actually relatively small in scale -- in terms of the total number of people being oppressed -- than in Tibet. And yet NATO gets involved in Kosovo but the world community is hands-off with anything relating to the affairs of China. That's one of the perks of having a permanent seat on the Security Council.
valen85 said @ 10:09am GMT on 18th Apr [Score:-1 Troll]
Wow... what an angry guy

Chinese people haven't been exploited since the 1800's. On a net "exploitation scale", we're doing most of the exploiting. Be proud of that. Own it.

i can't even write anymore. that guy just makes me feel too dirty to stand on my position.
valen85 said @ 10:23am GMT on 18th Apr
i don't think i've ever pointed out that china wasn't impoverished. our fights usually revolve around human rights issues of the country. I've marvelled that some people in China have been able to become very successful and that the country has seen a lot of wealth but I've always pointed out that china is backward and that its infrastructure is deeply troubled and outdated. I've also always pointed out that the trend is an upward one. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying.

But i do agree with angry man up there in that I don't believe that a western democracy is something that is realistic in China at least for the moment. We have 1.6 billion people, a large portion of which do not have the requisite education to maintain a working democracy. At this point, a democracy would look very much like a Russian one, where elections can be bought and coerced very easily. And guess who'd get the win? The established spin off of the current ccp, perhaps?
arctan said @ 2:46pm GMT on 18th Apr
*shrug* I go with Ben Franklin on this one. I'd rather have the newspapers without democracy.

You don't have to give everyone the right to vote to give people things like Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections in court. Nor do I see the justification, in moral terms, for not letting them do so. (I see the realpolitik justification of "How do you expect to institute a government that would bother to hamstring its own power in such a way without a populace educated enough to fight back?" but that's not really a justification. That's a target for something to change.)
Escaeva said @ 4:48am GMT on 19th Apr
you saying China does not have 3rd world areas???
give me a break!
Ever been to Anhui? or Yunnan? or Hubei?
arctan said @ 5:36am GMT on 19th Apr
Point out to me where I ever said "China does not have 3rd world areas".

What I said was that emphasizing China's poverty is a shitty excuse for saying that civil liberties in China don't matter. The irony is that China is a country that currently does relatively little to care for its own poor, and that sideshows like the '08 Olympics are being used to try to create the *illusion* that China is a great, modern country that has no problem with crippling poverty even in the capital city (because a large number of the poor and homeless have been forcibly removed from the city prior to the Games).

Seriously. The Games are a giant commercial for "China doesn't have problems". Anyone who thinks China *does* have problems has a very good reason to try to disrupt the Games as a way to get that message out.
Escaeva said @ 1:54pm GMT on 19th Apr
why are you so cynical?
Most Chinese people WANT the games to happen, not just the goverment.
Even if the goverment has it's own agenda, the people WANT the games.
Christ, no matter what you say how does ANY country "deservre" the Olympics more then one another? How is Canada 2010 any better? I hear, and hope, that our own Native American population is going to protest like HELL during 2010, to bring awareness to the shitty socioeconomic conditions they live in. Even jolly ol' Canada, which God bless I love, is smeared and vile.
my point is, "Good" and "Evil" should not be so black and white.
Every country has done and does fucked up things. China has a massive headache of problems to deal with, and if you think any goverment would not struggle and make tons of mistakes in a place like China you are being naive.
arctan said @ 6:29pm GMT on 19th Apr
I hear, and hope, that our own Native American population is going to protest like HELL during 2010, to bring awareness to the shitty socioeconomic conditions they live in. Even jolly ol' Canada, which God bless I love, is smeared and vile.
my point is, "Good" and "Evil" should not be so black and white.

Good for them. Did I ever say they shouldn't protest?

Every country has done and does fucked up things. China has a massive headache of problems to deal with, and if you think any goverment would not struggle and make tons of mistakes in a place like China you are being naive.

I think that the PRC is probably the world leader in terms of fucked-up things being done right now. (Give Bush & Co. three or four terms in office and they might catch up -- right now, though, I can still call Bush a stupid lying fuck in public without having to spoof my IP address or anything, so we're still lagging.) I see no reason to give them a pass on that.

*Even if* they were just another country like everyone else that just happened to have a few foibles here and there, *that's not a reason to ease up when shitty things are done to you*. Why the fuck should "All governments do bad things" be a reason to stop thinking that bad things are *bad* and protesting them?

This stupid irrational white liberal guilt that makes American white people incredibly reluctant to accuse "other cultures" of doing shitty things no matter how shitty they are? No matter how many *real people* get hurt and beg for the shitty things to stop, every day, and are ignored?

Well, it's a good thing I'm not white, then, isn't it?
Escaeva said @ 11:34am GMT on 18th Apr
Very good post, but your opinion is full of Bias,

The Cultural Revolution was perhaps the most complex communist policy ever implemented, I mean it started with Mao hanging a massive character poster outside of the "parliament" of the government saying
"ATTACK THIS BUILDING"
He saw a new class of bourgeois emerging in his own party, and like he had before, called on the people to smash his own goverment.
The people he was trying to beat down, the capitalists, quickly got into power after Mao's death, and China is what it is now.


Your statement about "Imperial China" is also quite unfair. Korea and China have had more positive relations then negative ones, although there has been conflict. The Provinces of Xianjing and Tibet are very con traversal, but have in fact been part of China for 1500 years and 1000 years respectively
Xianjing is part of China from the Tang, I do not dispute this.
Tibet was swept into the same Empire China was under the Mongols, and has been on/off part of China ever since.
I think most pro-independent Tibet often forget or sluff off the reality of Tibet before 1950, Serfdom, old European style serfdom, basically semi-slavery. Unless you were part of the fascist, er I mean, single-party-dictator Buddhist crew (The dali lama system directly contradicts so much of true Buddhist thought) You were a slave tied to your land who grows food for monks to eat. Deny this shit, you deny history.
Was the PLA justified in what they did in Tibet?
Hell no.
But was the Dali Lami justified in enslaving peasants, and living the good life in his big palace while his subjects starved?
Hell no
The Commies were overzealous, they smashed EVERY religion not just Tibetan beliefs. Confucius even came under fire during the Cultural Revolution, don't try to make just one group seem like the victim.
Christians....jesus....look at the USA, I don't blame the Red Guards for fucking that shit up (joke).

I know I was berserk before but comparing China to Nazi Germany? give me a fucking break, that's CNN style and this is SE, I expect more.

And the lifeblood of China was never invasion or conquest, during the Qin, Han, or Tang China could have easily conquered Eurasia if this was case, as many historians have pointed out. I would say it was more efficient agriculture and a open mind. At least before the Mongols came.

Taiwan is part of China. It always has been. Of course there will be tension between then two, the Civil war between the Communists and the Nationalists was drawn and out extremely bitter.
But in this day and age, China would only act aggressive towards Taiwan if they all out separate, which most in Taiwan are against anyway.

Have faith in the Chinese people.
They have endured worse governments.
People are starting to demand more accountability from their government in China.
The Communists got into power via peasant uprising, and I know for a fact they are deeply afraid of this.

And the protests in Tibet were not started by Han, they were started by Tibetans. Deny this and you really are sucking CNN's cock. I was impressed with the restraint China showed in Tibet, they do not want another Tienanmen.
I understand the Tibetans are frustrated, but going around attacking Han simply because of their ethnicity has only increased tensions further.
And whether the Nationalists or the Communists had won, each would have taken Tibet. This is a fact. As well, the Nationalists consider Mongolia part of China.....even the CCP did not go that far.

There is a old Chinese saying
"Power is easy to Seize, but difficult to maintain"
EPT said @ 12:53pm GMT on 18th Apr
Ah, of course. Tibet "belongs" to China, simply because it "always has". Why deal with this the Canada/Quebec way, and let the people who live there freely decide which way they want to go?
EPT said @ 12:56pm GMT on 18th Apr
(Why not* deal)
Escaeva said @ 4:46am GMT on 19th Apr
Tibet doesn't belong to China, but they do have a complex and intertwined history. It's not as simple as out media would like to portray it.
arctan said @ 3:44pm GMT on 18th Apr [Score:3 Informative]
Where to start...

The Cultural Revolution was perhaps the most complex communist policy ever implemented, I mean it started with Mao hanging a massive character poster outside of the "parliament" of the government saying
"ATTACK THIS BUILDING"

I don't understand exactly what you mean by this, unless you're being sarcastic. It wasn't "complex". It was very simple. It was Mao stirring up the country into an orgy of destruction against the CCP with which he had become disillusioned.

He saw a new class of bourgeois emerging in his own party, and like he had before, called on the people to smash his own goverment.
The people he was trying to beat down, the capitalists, quickly got into power after Mao's death, and China is what it is now.

No, they weren't. The people he was trying to beat down got beat down. Really hard. The people who came into power after Mao's death were people who sat on the sidelines trying to keep the trains running on time and avoiding any kind of ideological or political conflict.

Trust me, if Mao had wanted Deng Xiaoping dead during the Cultural Revolution, it would have happened. The ways Deng Xiaoping carefully kept himself irrelevant to the main conflict so that he could survive the Cultural Revolution are actually a quite interesting (in some ways, inspiring) study in politics.

The people Mao was trying to beat down -- the Party leaders of the time -- were *not* "bourgeoisie" or "capitalists" by any conceivable meaningful definition of the term. They were a managerial elite that wanted to run China on more efficient grounds based on solid research and a healthy degree of conservative skepticism.

You know, because Mao wanted, to the contrary, to run the country on insane fairy-tale approaches to try to achieve fundamentally unachievable goals, and therefore caused one of the greatest mass starvations in the history of the modern world. Great guy there.

And any claim that Liu Shaoqi was doing a "power grab" and was a "new bourgeois", in comparison to Mao, is insane. Liu was an elite, yes, and Mao was an elite, but people who actually knew Liu talked about how he was a professorial man who had a fairly ascetic lifestyle and was far, far more in touch with Soviet-style orthodox Marxism-Leninism than Mao. Mao was, by comparison, a fat drunken ex-peasant who regularly arranged for underage girls to be sent up to his luxurious hotel rooms and private cars on trains for long, drunken bonanza parties lasting until the wee hours of the morning. *Any* claim that the Cultural Revolution was in any way a *legitimate response* to the "revolution being betrayed" is ludicrous, unless you think the real goal of Chinese communism was always to set up Mao Zedong as the Son of Heaven and a living god.

Finally... "China is what it is now"? Am I to assume from that that you *disapprove* of China being what it is now? Well, good, so do I. Why are we arguing, then? Anyone who actually opposed laissez-faire capitalism that tramples on the working classes should hate the PRC more than any other country in the world -- the PRC has far *fewer* protections for the poor, far *less* progressive taxation, far *less* regulations constraining the actions of business owners than the USA.

Your statement about "Imperial China" is also quite unfair. Korea and China have had more positive relations then negative ones, although there has been conflict.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Ask a Korean how "positive" the relations have been between the two countries, historically. It's always like this -- whoever's in the dominant position thinks that the two countries basically get along and is shocked to find out how much anger the other country holds toward them.

People in Japan think that the relationship between China and Japan is basically okay, too, and that Japan's never done anything particularly bad in China outside of the normal this and that that happens in a war.

The Provinces of Xianjing and Tibet are very con traversal, but have in fact been part of China for 1500 years and 1000 years respectively
Xianjing is part of China from the Tang, I do not dispute this.

Bullshit. I could use the same argument to say that Italy would be justified in conquering the rest of Europe because the Roman Empire used to rule all that shit and that means it's always been "part of the country".

The Tang Dynasty conquered Uighurstan (what we now call Xinjiang) *and then lost control of it* when the Tang Dynasty fell 100 years later. Counting the time Xinjiang has been "part of China" starting from the 600s is nonsense -- Xinjiang was "part of China" (i.e. occupied and ruled as a protectorate) for about 100 years, *independent* for the next ONE THOUSAND FUCKING YEARS (never conquered by the Mongols, either -- sensibly, they allied with the Khan rather than trying to fight him) and finally conquered by the Qing Dynasty in 1755.

That's why it's called "Xinjiang". You didn't think China would still be calling it the "New Frontier" if it had actually ruled it continuously for 1,500 years, would you? Any non-stupid understanding of the situation admits that Xinjiang has only been ruled by China for 250 years continuously, 350 if you count the hundred-odd years of the Anxi Protectorate in the Tang Dynasty. C'mon, the English ruled Ireland for longer than that, and we tend to recognize the Irish as deserving of independence.

Same deal with Tibet. Tibet was integrated into the Yuan Dynasty of the *Mongols*. It's stupid to call that being part of a "Chinese" empire -- indeed, the Mongols had a much better relationship with the Tibetans and openly favored them over their Chinese subjects (Mongols and Tibetans were both considered "se ren", or "people of color", and treated preferentially in the Yuan Dynasty compared to the much-reviled Han. There were in fact administrative posts legally reserved for a certain percentage of "people of color" as opposed to Han. True story.)

Tibet was swept into the same Empire China was under the Mongols, and has been on/off part of China ever since.

No. If by on/off you mean "off for a continuous period of about 500 years and then suddenly on after an invasion by the Kangxi Emperor in 1720", that's kind of accurate.

Tibet has been independent for most of its history except for 200 years of Mongol rule starting in the 1200s, and 300 years of Manchu/Chinese rule starting in the 1700s. Trying to stretch this out and claim that Tibet has been "part of China" since the 1200s (which is still 800 years, not 1,000 years) is idiotic and ridiculous. It's actually very obvious to any historian who isn't trying to play games with words that China invaded and conquered Tibet in 1720 and that before that Tibet was an independent empire. The only ambiguities come from a kind of willful self-aggrandizing ignorance that, sadly, all too commonly characterizes Chinese historians. (It is true that Tibet "paid tribute" to the Emperor of China in that the Dalai Lama needed to say "ten thousand years to the Emperor" and give a gift every year for trade to continue between the two countries. That doesn't mean the Emperor actually *ruled Tibet*. The Jesuits had to go through that stupid rigmarole too when they came to China -- does that mean that China ruled the Catholic Church?)

I think most pro-independent Tibet often forget or sluff off the reality of Tibet before 1950, Serfdom, old European style serfdom, basically semi-slavery. Unless you were part of the fascist, er I mean, single-party-dictator Buddhist crew (The dali lama system directly contradicts so much of true Buddhist thought) You were a slave tied to your land who grows food for monks to eat. Deny this shit, you deny history.
Was the PLA justified in what they did in Tibet?
Hell no.
But was the Dali Lami justified in enslaving peasants, and living the good life in his big palace while his subjects starved?
Hell no

Who gives a shit? This kind of passive-aggressive argument avails you nothing. Yeah, the chieftains and kings who ruled Ireland back before the English conquered it were assholes, too. It was a feudal society. That was how it worked. Many Indian princes treated their subjects horribly before the British. It was a feudal society. That was how it worked.

The claim that the *only way to change things like this* is for foreigners to come into the country, conquer it, and oppress everyone in that country as second-class citizens until the slow wheels of economic progress finally "modernize" the country so that there's an uprising and they finally get their independence as a democratic republic seems dubious to me.

Even if it is true, though, then fine -- Tibet is about due for that stage of the process.

The Commies were overzealous, they smashed EVERY religion not just Tibetan beliefs. Confucius even came under fire during the Cultural Revolution, don't try to make just one group seem like the victim.

The people of Tibet have, as a whole, suffered more than the people of China proper. The idea that "Confucius came under fire" and this was somehow meaningful (how many people were actually killed for holding to ancient rituals to honor Confucius in the 1970s? I doubt a single one) is irrelevant.

Christians....jesus....look at the USA, I don't blame the Red Guards for fucking that shit up (joke).

Not a very funny joke. Fuck you.

I know I was berserk before but comparing China to Nazi Germany? give me a fucking break, that's CNN style and this is SE, I expect more.

And the lifeblood of China was never invasion or conquest, during the Qin, Han, or Tang China could have easily conquered Eurasia if this was case, as many historians have pointed out.

Oh, bullshit. Show me a historian who actually thinks the Tang Dynasty could have conquered Eurasia. Show me a historian who thinks that the reason the Tang Dynasty didn't conquer Eurasia was that they just plain didn't feel like it. Bullshit. (The Tang Dynasty, like all expansionist empires, expanded as far as it could until it ran out of steam, and upon running out of steam, collapsed.)

I feel like a lot of Chinese achievements get overlooked in Western history curricula, but to claim that China could've conquered the whole Old World and just didn't feel like it -- that India and the Caliphate and Rome would've posed no threat to all-powerful China -- is just so much wanking on the part of stupid Chinese nationalists. (No different and no morally superior from American wanking about how awesome the American military is and how we could conquer the world if we wanted to. It's all bullshit.)

I would say it was more efficient agriculture and a open mind. At least before the Mongols came.

Yes. China dominated East Asia through simple efficiency and open-mindedness. Killing people was never an important or necessary step in that process.

Taiwan is part of China. It always has been.

*sigh*

NO. IT HASN'T.

Taiwan didn't even have a settlement of Han Chinese until the 1500s. Before then, the bad climate and the hostile aborigines were enough to chase people away.

The island was a kind of "Here there be dragons" on Chinese maps -- people told folktales about it being the "Island of Women" or the "Island of Dogs", kind of like European fables about distant islands populated by Amazons or by men with faces in their chests or whatnot. The Kangxi Emperor said it was a "ball of mud beyond the pale of civilization" and official maps of the Empire never included it.

Taiwan did not become "part of China" until the Qing Dynasty annexed it in 1683, and it was only very slowly that the Han population that owed fealty to the Empire pushed the aborigines back to the mountains. Back then Taiwan was the equivalent of the way they portrayed the island Tortuga in Pirates of the Caribbean -- a haven for pirates and smugglers and criminals. China's hold on the island has always been very weak -- I mean, that's why the ROC would have their bolt-hole there in the first place.

"Taiwan has always been part of China" is just more meaningless babble -- there is no meaningful definition by which Taiwan has been part of China longer than about 400 years, and for most of those 400 years it's been the part of China where Chinese law had the least sway and the Chinese government was least respected.

Of course there will be tension between then two, the Civil war between the Communists and the Nationalists was drawn and out extremely bitter.
But in this day and age, China would only act aggressive towards Taiwan if they all out separate, which most in Taiwan are against anyway.

Really? So I guess it was just a mass hallucination when China fired missiles into the Taiwan Strait in 1996?

Have faith in the Chinese people.

Why the fuck would I? They let the past 50 years happen, and those have been some of the worst 50 years you can imagine any country going through.

They have endured worse governments.
People are starting to demand more accountability from their government in China.
The Communists got into power via peasant uprising, and I know for a fact they are deeply afraid of this.

Great. You know what would make some kind of uprising more likely? IF OTHER COUNTRIES STOOD UP FOR THOSE PEOPLE ONCE IN A WHILE INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY SUCKING THE GOVERNMENT'S COCK.

Why do you think I, a Chinese person, am standing up for the Chinese people in China who are attacking the Chinese government and being persecuted and attacked for doing so? How the fuck do you *think* China is ever going to change if the people on the inside criticizing the shit they do don't get any external support?

And the protests in Tibet were not started by Han, they were started by Tibetans. Deny this and you really are sucking CNN's cock.

These particular protests were started by Tibetans, yes. That is obvious, because the Tibetans are the people who have something to protest.

That does not make what's going on the Tibetans' *fault* any more than you can tell me the 1992 riots in Los Angeles were just the fault of uppity black people.

I was impressed with the restraint China showed in Tibet, they do not want another Tienanmen.

"Restraint"?

You know what the *best* way to avoid another Tiananmen would be? To *listen* to the protesters rather than trying desperately to shut them up in a way that leads to the fewest visible corpses.

I understand the Tibetans are frustrated, but going around attacking Han simply because of their ethnicity has only increased tensions further.

No disagreement about that. So what? Lots of conservatives in the US seem to think the proper response to the Watts riots was to go *tsk, tsk* at those violent black people and not think about *why* a bunch of citizens might be so angry they feel the need to riot.

I do not think riots are good. I do not think riots are something that should happen. I would not participate in a riot, because I think it's a morally bad thing to do.

All the same, if a country that's actually wronged a whole bunch of people -- like the USA and blacks, or China and Tibetans -- finds them getting violent over the mistreatment they've received, that is not an excuse for that country to pretend they've done nothing wrong and the Tibetans are the bad guys.

And whether the Nationalists or the Communists had won, each would have taken Tibet. This is a fact.

No, that is *not* a fact. That is speculation.

The Nationalists *did* win. The Nationalists enjoyed unchallenged rule from 1927 to 1937 -- the so-called Nanjing Decade -- while the Communists fled into the countryside on the Long March and everyone assumed the war was effectively over.

During that time, they made no move to retake Tibet. Yes, it is arguable that this is because the KMT was financially shaky, was still worried about the Communist threat, etc., but any statement about what the KMT *would have done* if the KMT *would have continued to rule China* is pure speculation. The nature of the KMT government and its character was something increasingly determined by Chiang Kai-Shek's slowly-growing-to-monomaniacal obsession with stamping out the Communists. There were plenty of other factions in the KMT, ranging from more militaristic to more liberal, and what *would have happened* is something we can never really know.

As well, the Nationalists consider Mongolia part of China.....even the CCP did not go that far.

ConsiderED, past tense. It's kind of irrelevant now, isn't it?

And so what? Am I arguing on behalf of the Nationalists? I dislike the cult of Sun Yat-Sen very much, and I'm no friend to the original version of the KMT, of which the modern KMT in Taiwan is a pale, faded shadow. (Even then, as someone who thinks of himself as "Green" at least on the issue of Taiwan independence, which I support, I'd be an enemy of the KMT.) The old "Nationalists" aren't a single-party ruler of Taiwan now -- what makes you think that any revolution in China would automatically consist of resurrecting the KMT circa 1930 as a one-party dictatorship? That's as stupid as thinking Tibet will magically revert to feudalism if it achieves independence.


There is a old Chinese saying
"Power is easy to Seize, but difficult to maintain"

Indeed. You often end up killing a lot more innocent people doing the latter.
Escaeva said @ 4:44am GMT on 19th Apr [Score:-1 Boring]
Source? Source? Source?
both of us are just throwing bullshit out.

Just because you are ethnically Chinese does not mean you are the only authority.

And honestly, Christianity in China has been fucked from the start, look at the Taiping Rebellion, what a waste of life that was.
"Not a funny joke" blah blah get a sense of humor, Christians have fucked up so many people all over the world, labeled so many people heathens, ruined the belief system of thousands of separate groups of people.
More blood has been split under the name of Christ then ANY Communist, Nationalist, Capitalist, fascist government combined.
The mass genocide of the Native American People
Crusades,
ect ect
Ok, so if none of what makes up China actually belongs to China then what is the solution? Divide up the whole country and give everyone back their native land?
What the fuck do we do in the USA and Canada then if this is the logic you use? We are WAY less justified to be here then China is to be in Tibet, this kind of logic is futile! We took this land! it is stolen! no argument!
And dude, I know quite a few Koreans, old and young, and this whole dislike of China thing you speak of has never come up. South Koreans don't like the CCP of course, but they don't "dislike" China.
Don't propagate hate that does not exist.
The only early Empire that would even pose a threat to China ffrom Qin-Tang would be Rome, but Rome was built on slavery and excess while the Han was actually base on Confucian values.
Don't belittle China's past either, I am no nationalist, I am not even Chinese, but I understand and respect history.

And try reading about the Cultural Revolution not just from Western texts and Taiwan authorized BS. My uncle spent 20 years in Taiwan and says censorship there is bad, martial law just ended recently...like 10 years ago or something? 15 now?

I want to hear your solution for China, you seem to have no hope at all for the Chinese people. Should we just wipe them out then? You bitch and moan but offer no solutions.
and don't try to bring in the black riots of 92' into the argument, diffrent situation, don't try to slander racism!
Escaeva said @ 7:27am GMT on 19th Apr [Score:-2 Overrated]
-1 Boring
What a shitty board this has become for expressing anything but the mainstream ideology.
Maybe your definition of human rights, freedom, peace, are all diffrent then other people.
There is no universal truth, there is no universal way.
A Tao that is called a Tao is not a Tao.
China values social order above personal liberty
USA values personal expression above social stability

This is so retarded I even need to explain this.

I guess the only thing you guys want to hear is that China is Evil, pure evil, simplify the problem, dehumanize the enemy, create it in black and white.
makes things easier for weak minds to understand, everything in terms of one or another, heaven or hell, just like Christianity.
Do this and that, you go to heaven, do this that or this and you go to hell.
what a perfect little method of control huh? How can you believe in shit that was invented to control the masses?
Ever hear of "The Dark Ages"?

anyway, try to have an open mind kids. What you want and value is NOT what EVERYONE wants a values.
Get over your own self-righteous self and realize truth is not always a matter of solid fact.

All this Anti-China sentiment is enough to make a educated subjective mind convulse.

And posting anything but the American view is not tolerated at this site I suppose.

Maybe you dickweeds should go to China, meet some Chinese people, check things out, see it for yourself.
Don't lie to yourself or me either, your not doing anyone any favors.
arctan said @ 9:26am GMT on 19th Apr
-1 Boring
What a shitty board this has become for expressing anything but the mainstream ideology.
Maybe your definition of human rights, freedom, peace, are all diffrent then other people.
There is no universal truth, there is no universal way.
A Tao that is called a Tao is not a Tao.
China values social order above personal liberty
USA values personal expression above social stability

Americans don't like it when the government takes away your house and demolishes it to build a parking lot for an Olympic stadium. Chinese people don't care. They're just fine with it. They may stand in line screaming in protests for hours afterwards, but that's just their way of saying they're okay with it. (And they're okay with being forcibly broken up by police with nightsticks to prevent them from protesting too.)

Fuck you.

And posting anything but the American view is not tolerated at this site I suppose.

Maybe you dickweeds should go to China, meet some Chinese people, check things out, see it for yourself.
Don't lie to yourself or me either, your not doing anyone any favors.

If you think SE is really a "pro-America" site, and if you think that, out of after everything I've said, I say it because I've never been to China and never met any Chinese people, there's really no hope here.
Escaeva said @ 1:49pm GMT on 19th Apr
Americans don't like a lot of things,
Including respecting other nations
and I know SE is no pro American site

your example about demolishing buildings
have you ever really, REALLY thought about the concept
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
really, think about it very hard.
think about where China was during the 1940's.
No matter what you cry about, the outcome for China will be a struggle for about 200 years. China had, and still has, a lot of complex social issues.
Give everyone the right to vote? paralyze everything with the same bureaucratic bullshit that paralyzes anything from actually happening here.
and enough with the "fuck you" buddy, Jesus ever heard anyone disagree with you before?
you take a lot more time then I do with your posts and are much better at sounding intelligent.
But every point you made is just some opinion, sounds like a westerner looking in on China, and in all his divine wisdom, telling them what they are doing wrong.

And the Cultural Revolution was a disaster, but there are millions of Chinese who remember those days as "good" for the millions who remember them as bad.
Try to be more subjective.
Communism, Capitalism, all subject to the ultimate law of man's imperfection.
The USA is perhaps one of most corrupt countries.
The government spends about 10 times more on the prison system then education.
Let's say China shackles up all their prisoners,
how much would this cost?
how much would it take away form education?
maybe they value mass education over the life of a criminal, why should the people pay for housing and food for crooks (I know not all executions in China are criminals)
So in the USA they deal with minorities by throwing them in jail, a black male born in the USA has a one in three chance of spending time in prison.
What system works?
They are all flawed.
Screw America, China has NOTHING on it's human rights record compared to the USA. Korea, Vietnam, Hawaii, The Natives, Iraq, Afghanistan, and even China it had a piece of back in the day.
Hell, slavery was legal up until 200 years ago? How about what they did in Cuba? stop bitching about China, China could kill 30 more million of it's own and still be a Angel next to the states.
in China slavery was made illegal over 2000 years ago, although I am sure it existed, it was never legal. Workers were paid.

And about China conquering Eurasia, you have any idea how large and well trained the Qin army was? You know...China...martial arts....fighting with your brain....better and more advanced combat.....Chariots....the wheel.....

Name any other time period in medevil history besides the Tang when the divorce rate was 40%. Or when multiculturalism was encouraged and embraced.

and not all Han look down on Tibetans, that's such a stupid sterotype. My girlfriend's parents are Han but devot Tibetan buddhists, and I would say more generally its UNEDUCATED people who are racist.
just like all over the world, poorer uneducated people tend to be more racist.
even in China.
But you enter a period of high material wealth and a good scholarly enviroment (Tang IE) then look what happens.
you pin so much on supposed "Han superiority" but the term Han has no genetic conotations. It simply means somebody who lives the Chinese way of life, a Han could be a Tibetan, Korea, Brit, Afrtican, Indian, does not matter. It's not a gentic term, although white people asume it is because western society is inherintly the most racialy charged.
"Barbarians", as the Chinese called their naighbors, had nothing to do with race, simply with the way of life.
arctan said @ 6:22pm GMT on 19th Apr
You know, fun as this has been, I don't have the stamina to keep this going, especially since you demonstrate an amazing willingness to just keep on talking with no real concern for facts.

While we're talking about what people sound like, I think I've got you pegged, assuming you're being honest with me -- you sound like one of those crazy weeaboo kids who's exotified China up the wazoo. (You've got a real-live Asian girlfriend, huh? Bet that feels good. Are you learning to write the language with a real inkstone and brush, too?)

I was 50/50 on it before, but I'll take you at your word -- I don't think you're Chinese, I think you're a fucked-up white dude like those girls I used to go to school with who used to daydream about moving to Japan and would go on long rants about the beauty and pageantry of Japanese culture at the drop of a hat.

I say that because *not even* a fenqing from China would be able to say things like "'Han' is not a racial term" with a straight face, to say nothing of talking up the superiority of Chinese military power with nonsense about "martial arts" (at least you didn't mention Sun-Tzu, or Japanese katana with MILLIONS OF FOLDS).

Seriously, dude, I'm tired. Go away. Go take a class or read a book or something. This isn't even worth it for lulz.
EPT said @ 2:31pm GMT on 19th Apr
-1 Boring
What a shitty board this has become for expressing anything but the mainstream ideology.

Eh? There's like only one or two guys seriously opposing you. It's not like there's a hundred users shouting you down.
arctan said @ 9:23am GMT on 19th Apr
Oh, what the fuck, I wasn't going to do anything better with my afternoon anyway.

Source? Source? Source?
both of us are just throwing bullshit out.

Just because you are ethnically Chinese does not mean you are the only authority.

It's one thing when valen85 makes questionable, controversial claims about the way things are in modern China that would need some kind of academic study to back up that he doesn't provide.

It's another thing when all I'm telling you are basic facts about Chinese history that you can find on Wikipedia or that you would learn in any college survey course on Chinese history, which it seems apparent you have never taken.

Just because you are ethnically Chinese does not mean you are the only authority.

I never said being ethnically Chinese made me an authority on the truth of Chinese history. The very existence of the largely ahistorical and ignorant fenqing movement in the PRC gives the lie to that.

I think I have more authority on the matter than, say, you, mainly due to having a slightly better grip on the facts than you. I only brought up my ethnicity in order to counter the oft-repeated, tired, and stupid accusation that the only reason people have a problem with China is because they're "xenophobic" or "sinophobic" or "racist" (including people *in* China who are political dissidents and go to prison for it).

And honestly, Christianity in China has been fucked from the start, look at the Taiping Rebellion, what a waste of life that was.

The Taiping Rebellion is only an example of "Christianity in China" in the broadest possible sense of the term. Established Christian communities in China at the time viewed it the same way the foreign missionaries did -- as a bizarre, heretical personality cult around Hong Xiuquan. Westerners decided very early on not to give any support to the Taipings because their beliefs had nothing to do with Western Christianity.

In any case, claiming that the Taiping Rebellion was itself really a religious war seems very iffy. You don't find many examples of anyone outside of Hong's inner circle who really ever talked much about Hong's supposed messiah status at all, and once the Rebellion got really serious Hong himself had almost no actual power within the movement. Most of the ordinary folks who joined -- like my maternal grandfather -- were people who were suffering from poverty and wanted the rewards that would come if the Taipings took the country. Really, it was one of the more transparent versions of religion being mostly an excuse to start a war over resources and to reignite an old ethnic conflict (of Hakka against non-Hakka, at the beginning, and later of all Han against the Manchus). Which, in my view, is what most religious war comes down to anyway, and is why blaming religion for war is a stupid thing to do (and why societies that are less religious don't actually seem to be any less fanatical or violent).

"Not a funny joke" blah blah get a sense of humor, Christians have fucked up so many people all over the world, labeled so many people heathens, ruined the belief system of thousands of separate groups of people.
More blood has been split under the name of Christ then ANY Communist, Nationalist, Capitalist, fascist government combined.
The mass genocide of the Native American People
Crusades,
ect ect

Well, that's partly because Christianity has existed for 2,000 years and communism has existed for, what, 200? 100? Depends how you define it. In a sense it's actually more impressive that communism caught up so quickly, though that's really just because we have better technology now.

But seriously, fuck you. (Also, I'd like to know who Falun Gong Buddhists are guilty of killing, imprisoning or torturing.)

Ok, so if none of what makes up China actually belongs to China then what is the solution? Divide up the whole country and give everyone back their native land?

Don't be an idiot. There is a clear difference that Chinese people themselves always used to acknowledge between "Inner China" and "Outer China", i.e. the central provinces and tributary states. Tibet was *never* part of "Inner China", what a Western historian would call "China proper". Nor was Xinjiang. Xinjiang's name ("New Frontier") even reflects that.

Chinese people *themselves* saw Tibet and Xinjiang and Mongolia the way we in the USA saw the Philippines or Puerto Rico. Even now, with all this "All these random places we recently conquered have always been part of China!" nonsense being flung around, do you honestly think the average Chinese person wouldn't feel out of place if you suddenly transplanted him to Lhasa? Do those places get *treated* as part of the same country, by law enforcement or government bureaucracy or the army? Are citizens of Tibet thought of as citizens with all the same rights, legal and social, as citizens of China proper? Come on.

This has nothing to do with me wanting to resurrect nebulous property rights for an ancient people that have ceased to exist. It's not even about wanting to give back property to a people who have been royally fucked over and mostly died out, as would be the case if I wanted to give America back to the Native Americans.

It's about the country of Tibet, which is still mostly populated by Tibetans, who are still quite distinct from Han Chinese and badly treated by the Han Chinese government of the PRC, *itself* wanting to be independent and *asking to be independent*.

What the fuck do we do in the USA and Canada then if this is the logic you use? We are WAY less justified to be here then China is to be in Tibet, this kind of logic is futile! We took this land! it is stolen! no argument!

We could do something halfway decent and let Tibet vote on whether it wants to be independent, the way Canada does with Quebec or the USA does with Puerto Rico. That is, in a sense, still only *halfway* decent -- doesn't make up for the initial conquest -- but that's better than giving them no choice and telling them they've "always been a part of China", which isn't decent at all.

And dude, I know quite a few Koreans, old and young, and this whole dislike of China thing you speak of has never come up. South Koreans don't like the CCP of course, but they don't "dislike" China.

Sure, in the same way that I and most of my friends don't actually personally have a racist hatred for Japan or Japanese people. But it's idiotic to claim that the negativity isn't there. (For crying out loud, China subjugated the Korean Empire and forced their emperor into a series of ritual humiliations that became encoded into custom. The Choson Emperor had to be greeted by "One thousand years to the emperor!" in contrast to the "Ten thousand years!" to the Chinese emperor. You think that kind of thing doesn't leave marks, when it's the relationship the two countries had for centuries? It makes the whole England/France thing look tame.)

The only early Empire that would even pose a threat to China ffrom Qin-Tang would be Rome, but Rome was built on slavery and excess while the Han was actually base on Confucian values.

Um... yes. Right. The Han Dynasty was based on "Confucian values". In the same sense that the later Roman Empire -- the Tang would have most likely, in some wildly improbable alternate history scenario, actually fought the Byzantine Empire, not the Roman -- was "based on Christian values" like turning the other cheek and whatnot.

Don't feed me that bullshit. The Han Dynasty imperial government, like all imperial goverments, like the ENTIRE CONCEPT OF AN IMPERIAL GOVERNMENT, was fundamentally Legalist in nature with a Confucian wrapper covering it. Confucius and Mencius would have never wanted the Han Dynasty or the Qin Dynasty before it to come into existence in the first place. The idea of all states being united into a single empire would've been repellent to them. Confucius advised the Chu king in an effort to *keep that from happening*.

The imperial government had Confucian trappings -- the imperial examination system kept up a pretense that it tested people on "Confucian values" and whatnot -- but the whole idea of the government was based on compromising actual Confucian values in a Legalist framework. The government, for instance, was never at all shy about imposing harsh, brutal punishments for lawbreakers of any kind, even though Confucian doctrine itself is vehemently opposed to direct retributive punishment (as opposed to moral remonstrance) and in the days of the Warring States any legal code of punishments would've labeled you as a follower of Han Fei-Tzu.

The whole ridiculous philosophical pretzel we call "Neo-Confucianism" designed to try to fit Confucius' teachings into the model of a powerful and repressive legalistic empire is almost as fun to read as looking at how Catholic philosophers tried to make it seem like the immense power of the Catholic Church naturally followed from Jesus' teachings.

Don't belittle China's past either, I am no nationalist, I am not even Chinese, but I understand and respect history.

I have a hard time seeing how anyone could possibly come to hold the views you hold -- defending the Cultural Revolution as a purification of the CCP, babbling about how ancient China could have conquered the entire Eurasian Continent if it weren't too virtuously Confucian to do such a thing, and other bullshit -- without being a fenqing. The *only* place such things are taught as part of an educational program is in PRC propaganda.

And try reading about the Cultural Revolution not just from Western texts and Taiwan authorized BS. My uncle spent 20 years in Taiwan and says censorship there is bad, martial law just ended recently...like 10 years ago or something? 15 now?

I have read a lot about the Cultural Revolution from multiple sources. Anyone who tries to make it sound at all like a good thing, a necessary phase in China's development, a justified return strike against the capitalists, and the other spin you've tried to puff at me is a fuckwit who is sucking the Devil's dick and needs to shut the fuck up.

And what's with continuing to bring up Taiwan? This isn't a PRC-vs-ROC match. I am not arguing "in favor" of Taiwan. Taiwan can have a lot of problems -- indeed, does have a lot of problems -- without this somehow requiring me to say "See? China's not that bad. Let's cut China lots of slack." (Though I will point out that ending dictatorship and starting free elections in 1996 is better than ending dictatorship and starting free elections never.)

I want to hear your solution for China, you seem to have no hope at all for the Chinese people. Should we just wipe them out then? You bitch and moan but offer no solutions.

Any solutions would be complicated and difficult and wouldn't lead to a utopia in any case. I actually think China someday ending up in the place Russia is now would *not be that bad a thing*, as much as cynics like to badmouth Yeltsin and Putin.

I think that any possible solution involves people standing up and being as loud and disruptive as possible when the PRC government tries to make everything okay. That's why I care, in fact, and why I'm in favor of the Olympics protests.

I *do* have faith in the Chinese people. I have faith that the government can and will change if they are confronted with the threat of insurrection, of international disapproval, of their shit being exposed in the sunshine for everyone to see. I have faith that *if those conditions are available* then the Chinese people are just as capable of taking back power and changing things as anyone in any other country.

I reject any statement that this is just plain unnecessary because Chinese people don't need rights and don't mind being oppressed and are perfectly okay with having their property seized by the government and being thrown into prison. I think that bespeaks a fundamental *lack* of faith in the Chinese people.

I'm in favor of the anti-Beijing Olympics protests *because* I'm in favor of the people *in China* who are fighting for a better China who are routinely silenced, and I think those of us not in China have a responsibility to say what they can't.

and don't try to bring in the black riots of 92' into the argument, diffrent situation, don't try to slander racism!

It's a different situation. The fundamental principle is the same -- angry people rioting because they have *no other way to make their displeasure heard*.
mrcucumber said @ 1:03pm GMT on 19th Apr [Score:-1]
I'm sorry to interject myself here but this is proving to be quite entertaining. ...carry on-
Escaeva said @ 2:32pm GMT on 19th Apr
A) Why do you defend Christianity so much? Face the facts, it still is holding people back, it has always held people back, and we would be a lot better off without it. It is a Religion based around worship, fear, and shame. It forces linear thought. They fuck up everything related to science. They still do, The US's medical research would be light-years ahead if it was not for Jesus worshiping brainwashed retards. Marxism at least makes fucking sense.
B) You get your news from the Epoch Times? so much Falong Gong references, you going to tell me next the Lhasa riots were started by "PLA" solders in disguise?

Let's have a fantasy scenario.
China continues it's massive economic growth.
It makes enough money to move into more socialistic policies funded both privatley and by the government
around 2030, China beings officially moving back towards Marxism
as the current government predicts
By 2040, most of the population lives in cities, quickly becoming booming.
2050, the vast majority of the country side is placed under strict environmental protection laws, agriculture is mostly taken care of by machines.
2080, 30 years of environmental policy revert much of the damage done by the desperate economic growth of 1985-2020.
2100, China achieves the Marxist goal. The countryside is lush and bountiful, a very large national park that is also a food source for the people.
95% of the population lives in urban cosmopolitan metropolis. Class and gender discrimination no longer exist. Exploitation has been ended.
2150- Space Colonies are launched
2200 – 50% of China’s population now lives in space, 50% of food is grown in space colonies.
Ect ect ect
Yeah it’s a bunch of BS, but what isn’t! If China does go this way, actually upholding Marxism, would it all have been worth it?
arctan said @ 6:26pm GMT on 19th Apr
...Oh, I like fantasies. No, wait, how about in 2037, Jesus comes back and all the virtuous people gets raptured to Heaven while the rest of the world gets killed by flaming metal locusts with human faces?

Oooh, ooh, or maybe aliens will land on Earth in 2050 and plug us all into some kind of evolving hypertechnological hivemind.

Or maybe in the year 2077 my penis will spontaneously grow to 60 inches in length and the entire rest of the Earth's population will transform into beautiful women hungry for my seed, and demand that I impregnate them one by one... That's a nice one.

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, maybe the War in Iraq will be "worth it" too if in 100 years it suddenly turns out that Iraq becomes a utopian paradise through some convoluted, contradictory series of events that could *only* have been made possible by us going there and fucking things up. As I understand it President Bush is holding out for "future historians" to validate him in this way. I wish him, and you, the best of luck.
EPT said @ 12:48pm GMT on 18th Apr
China also attacked Vietnam in the late 70s. It wasn't an "invasion", because it was a failed military (i love this word) excursion.
pleaides said @ 9:23pm GMT on 19th Apr
+1 Comments :)

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