Sensible Erection | How Not To Talk to Your Kids

Sunday, 20 January 2008

quote [ “I don’t care what the experts say,” Jill says defiantly. “I’m living it.” ]

Parents take heed, Prospective parents also.
Someone think of the children!
Repost(kind of), I am unapologetic

[sci&tech] [by monkeynuts@2:54amGMT] [+10 Interesting]

Comments

lilmookieesquire said @ 3:14am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Insightful]
I hate feel-good child psychology.

I took a shit load of AP classes. The only differences were teachers constantly kissing student-ass, and that they were easier than normal classes. A good half the students in the AP classes had serious cases of "smarter-than-thou" in everything.

They also tended to have awkward social skills and trouble walking without someones nose shoved in their ass.

I however, was perfect. *cough*

lilmookieesquire said @ 3:14am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Underrated]
Why isn't anyone telling me my comment was great :(

lilmookieesquire said @ 3:15am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Insightful]
You guys are all dumb!

lilmookieesquire said @ 3:15am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Funny]
Love me?

max_damage78 said @ 3:22am GMT on 20th Jan
Give me your email address and I'll send you some.....love.

MWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

lilmookieesquire said @ 4:17am GMT on 20th Jan
The hard way? I always thought the P stood for "placement".

snakewood said @ 5:21am GMT on 20th Jan
You have tampridosis please take the blue pill, report to shock therapy...

lilmookieesquire said @ 5:43am GMT on 20th Jan
Eat me. (get it? I pulled an alice in wonderland on you!)

red pill said @ 5:54am GMT on 20th Jan
no, eat me first

lilmookieesquire said @ 6:05am GMT on 20th Jan
nom nom nom?

snakewood said @ 7:11am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 WTF]
embarassing that teenagers used to walk by our house, we were not allowed to cross 6 lane highway as kids, to mecca Macdonald's and giant food store. They would trade grandmas silver dollars and other valuables to us kids for 'cool' bean shooters, later we learn Macdonald's straw and bag of beans worth less than 50 cents for real silver dollars worth 7-20 dollars.

It was sort of like being forced to swallow, than yelled at later by the preist and abusers to cause them to do something unholy, fun or scary7

arteitle said @ 3:33am GMT on 20th Jan
Making one feel good is the goal of psychology, I'd argue.

I was in AP high school classes too, and I doubt that they were easier than normal classes would have been. However, in my school's AP and honors classes, it was possible to earn a grade of "H" (for "honors"), worth five points for GPA purposes, above an A worth four points. I saw this artificially inflating honors students' grade point averages. The honors students were for the most part socially competent and well-adjusted, with one exception. *cough*

snowfox said @ 4:45am GMT on 20th Jan
In my school you had regulars, AP and IB, which had max GPAs of 4, 5 and 6. For an IB student, taking a required class that didn't come in IB could lower your GPA. Now I saw lots and lots of regulars kids walk around without a single book, the average IB backpack weighed some 40-50lbs. We were also told every year during standardized testing that we'd better not fuck around because the school's funding depended on us bringing up the average. If you didn't do really well, they'd put you in a remedial class knowing full well you didn't belong there (so that next year you'd take the test more seriously).

Anyway, IB classes really were significantly harder than AP and regulars (I only know because of the classes that didn't come in IB). But it isn't just harder, they also liked just giving us a hell of a lot more work, which is pretty much what all academic programs are designed to do in the US. A smart kid who isn't busybusybusy will cause trouble, so the goal is for us to always have something to do. Hell, this is why the regular school called the gifted school and told them to take me (which they did). In first grade my teacher told me she'd already given me two weeks of work (and I was done, and it was perfect because this is first fucking grade), and she couldn't give me more. I was not a trouble maker yet but in fear I would become one, they unloaded me.

They also don't do grade skips because they don't really want kids to graduate early. Ever. This also means that if you take a year of high school english in middle school, you are now required to take an extra year that no one else has to take (so your senior year you'll be forced to take a full schedule, but only english counts towards your graduation and everyone else is allowed to graduate with easier requirements).

lilmookieesquire said @ 5:41am GMT on 20th Jan
What's the IB?

We just had regular, AP, and college courses offered on our campus through the local community college. You could branch out into "creative" courses as well, but those tended to be fluffy during my time.

I was quite special too. I remember, during the first grade, the teacher put me in the "brown group" in the basement.

k0k0peli said @ 6:05am GMT on 20th Jan
My secondary school days were before this AP shit spread around. We had mandatories and electives. The electives were either academic or shop. Nothing subtle there. Community college was seen as an extension of high school, and its classes were either... academic or shop. We hi-IQ types were labeled MGM (Mentally Gifted Minor) around grade 7, which meant more academic classes and an ADULT LIBRARY CARD! I spent as much time as possible hanging out in the local college town (Claremont CA) and avoiding real studying. Dropped out, hitchhiked around North America, acted smart but lived dumb. If only everybody had told me I was subnormal, I miht have had to buckle down and work. Ah, wasted time...

Misanthrope said @ 9:00pm GMT on 20th Jan
From what I saw AP and IB were fairly similar. Anyway difficulty in high school classes is all subjective based on your teacher. Since there really is no standard they are forced to meet.

theuniverse said @ 5:49am GMT on 20th Jan
Perfection might have called for a comma after 'I' and before "however.'

:)

lilmookieesquire said @ 6:04am GMT on 20th Jan
I hate to quibble with you, but it's there. You just can't see it perfectly. ;)

kang said @ 8:01am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:3 Insightful]
Everyone on the internet falls into one of these "genius level" categories:

1. I took a lot of AP classes (or equivalent), etc., but I wasn't one of "them."

2. I tested at genius level in a test in [insert grade between Kingergarten and 12th grade]... or I learned to speak/read/write when I was two.

3. I'm a genius but my parents/society/school/childhood circumcision crushed my will so I never applied myself.

4. Smart people are stoopid and can't talk good or party. Who wants to be that?

6. I am too smart for society to measure in their conventional ways.

EPT said @ 8:43am GMT on 20th Jan
Cunning.

desade said @ 9:31am GMT on 20th Jan
Linguist.

Jewbacchus said @ 9:16am GMT on 20th Jan
Why can't I be a socially recognized genius who applies himself?

Aidentas said @ 9:26am GMT on 20th Jan
Where's #5?

Aidentas said @ 9:26am GMT on 20th Jan
#5 MUST describe me then...

Aidentas said @ 9:27am GMT on 20th Jan
I'm so special.

*hugs self*

gang of fourteen said @ 9:30am GMT on 20th Jan
* group hug *

arctan said @ 10:29am GMT on 20th Jan
So I'm guessing by the smarmy tone and leaving out the number 5 that you'd be an example of number 4?

landsky said @ 3:23am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:5 Funny]

mos said @ 6:46am GMT on 20th Jan
He's currently my favorite comic; the guy just slays me. I'm disappointed HBO didn't pick up another season of his show, it was pretty consistently funny, especially the episode with the church.

randomaction said @ 12:30pm GMT on 20th Jan [Score:-2]
Pick another comedian.

arteitle said @ 3:45am GMT on 20th Jan
Reading this, I can see how some of my own difficulties dealing with failure or frustration could stem from excessive praise as a kid. I can identify with the ones who shut down when faced with a challenge that doesn't come naturally. Very interesting article, thanks.

diskis said @ 3:47am GMT on 20th Jan
My experiences pretty much support this. I've been praised for my intelligence all my life, from both family and school. Which lead to me to toning down doing homework when I was 11, and completely stopping doing it when I was 16. I rationalized it as: "I'm so smart, I don't need to do the same stuff as the peons. Still graduated and tried university for a few years, gave up and moved abroad.

I'm 26, happy, with a good white collar job, already outearning my parents. But my peers, who I grew up with? Most are okay, normal middle-class, except the three of my friends who were not approved, or even looked down by their parents. They worked hard to prove themselves, got double masters from university and works as consultants and investment banker. They earn 2-3 times more than me already. They will be CIOs or CTOs of multinational corporations.

If money is a measurement of success (which can be debated into the next millennia), I have been thorougly pwned by them, even though I'm "smarter than them" according to some IQ test.

larger2day said @ 12:14pm GMT on 20th Jan
Where did you move to?

diskis said @ 7:19am GMT on 21st Jan
Amsterdam, Netherlands

Avid said @ 3:55am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Interesting]
I read a very similar article in Scientific American in November.

This attitude and willingness to work hard is the primary difference that I see between myself (graduated college with both bachelors' and masters' on a full scholarship) and my sister (got the same full scholarship, eventually dropped out).

She started to have trouble in Calculus, and rather than work harder, she worked to prove her inability (she actually did research and got 'tested' for dyscalculia, which is a developmental disorder (e.g. it doesn't explain doing ok in algebra and then sucking at calculus)).

As such, she's the poster child for this IMO.

snowfox said @ 5:43am GMT on 20th Jan
Yes but I dropped out to succeed in business.

Narrenschiff said @ 5:49am GMT on 20th Jan
:0

snowfox said @ 4:38am GMT on 20th Jan
REPOST

http://sensibleerection.com/entry.php/63222

klayto said @ 4:56am GMT on 20th Jan
I KNEW that I read about this before. (Since I'm sooo smart as my parents always told me)

Jewbacchus said @ 5:10am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Insightful]
And now, we all get to blame our lack of motivation on our parents.

lilmookieesquire said @ 5:41am GMT on 20th Jan
Those fuckers! The way th- oh god... so much typing...

snakewood said @ 7:16am GMT on 20th Jan
Did mommy and daddy dissolve drugs in your oatmeal than add brown sugar to cover it up, or make cough syrup by adding sugar to southern comfort or fruit and have you suck on it? These things are common at halfway houses and reservations. Meat, rock sugar, real softdrink or new toy given as bribe?

devilsad said @ 8:34am GMT on 20th Jan
You say that like it's universally untrue.

What does a smart kid do when they get the same praise (glowing and false, or none) for trying, and for not trying? Not trying sure is easier. And don't tell me there is any source of praise outside the home/school system. Hell I'd trade half my salary just to be fucking appreciated at work. The only motivation to keep going is the knowledge that if you stop running, even for a moment, the world will roll on top of you and crush you to nothing.

Jewbacchus said @ 9:15am GMT on 20th Jan
Come again?

kylemcBitch said @ 9:40am GMT on 20th Jan
Tell you what, you give me half your salary...and I will come into your work place everyday and appricate the hell out of you.

k0k0peli said @ 5:53am GMT on 20th Jan
So it's a repost - it ain't that recent. I musta missed the original. Anyway, this is about me fer sure. I was always praised for testing super-high, got into a MGM (Mentally Gifted Minor program), and proceeded to make a balls-up of my life. First wife called me a "failure-oriented underachiever" and that about nails me. Took me some time to get comfortable with myself. Fuck praise. Self-esteem comes from within, or not at all.

uncletim said @ 7:22am GMT on 20th Jan
"...inverse power of praise..."
That's what it feels like in my brain,
has felt like that for a long time;
if someone tells me I'm smart
I want to slink away and hide
because all I can think of is what
I'm "incapable" of doing.
I must change this programming, it sucks.

kylemcBitch said @ 8:52am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Informative]
I was placed in special needs classes from 1st grade forward. For the first few months of my first grade year I did not get along with my (normal course) teacher. She was a 20 year veteran of teaching 6 year old brats and had no issue forcing kids to write the same sentence 70 times. In fact, that was our morning activity... we would come into class, sit down and write the same sentence over and over. I only remember this because I recently found old notebooks.

Anyway, given that atmosphere it is no wonder I didn't quite fit in. I am not sure exactly what I did to deserve it, but halfway through the year I was placed into special needs classes for being slow and having dyslexia. I wont toot my own horn, but only one of those reasons are actually correct.

Getting to the point here, I was placed into special needs classes in southern New Jersey during the early '90s. Since funding was so low, all special needs students shared the same class room. I was taught in a small room which included desks with seatbelts (which came in handy, as teachers and students were prone to being attacked). I did very well in these classes...mostly because I don't drool all over myself. I was praised very highly by the teachers.

I never got out of special needs classes while I lived in New Jersey ...that actually has alot to do with how school funding worked in those days. Special needs students (at least in New Jersey) netted that school $20,000 per special needs student, per year. This created a very strange scenario. Very intelligent people would be placed into these classes for indiscresions of youth, this had two benefits: 1, Your special needs classes would do very well in standardized testing and 2, You could afford a large staff/discressionary fund so long as the parents of the students didn't ask alot of questions.

For years, I was one of the most highly praised students in my classes. I never got below a 100% in any test and my homework was done before I even left school grounds. It wasn't praise that led me to teach myself at home (by the time I reached the 9th grade, the classes I belonged to were still teaching reading at a 5th level and mathematics never got beyond simple multiplication) but instead the realization that I was fucking bored and being surrounded by morons is a depressing thing. Sadly, now that I am an adult I find that to be the way life works in general... but at least back then I could convince myself that the world might be different than the small rooms I spent my day in.

Getting kids to try harder, and telling them they are intelligent for doing so should not be mutually exclusive. Had my teachers not constantly told me that I deserved better, I might easily have fallen in with the "lets just be stupid" crowd of children that populated those classes. Surely, some of them had geniune disabilty. Not nearly all of them. I think we over-analyze self-esteem and fear reactions, and deeply misunderstand how simple perspective can really change the way children do things.

The article in question even touches on this point without even realizing it. They mention they taught students how the brain works, helping them realize that you are only dumb if you want to be. I think that, more than holding back praise helped those kids cope.

But then again, what the hell do I know? I used to be in seat-belt classes.

Jewbacchus said @ 9:20am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:1 Funny]
The image of you in a big black trenchcoat and black makeup seatbelted to a chair too small for you, playing with brightly colored blocks, surrounded by actual retards, is now my happy place. I will go there whenever I feel sad.

kylemcBitch said @ 9:27am GMT on 20th Jan
I am glad I can make your day that much brighter.

one_inch said @ 9:56am GMT on 20th Jan [Score:2 Funny]
"Dr. Mahzarin Banaji, a Harvard social psychologist who is an expert in stereotyping, told me, “Carol Dweck is a flat-out genius."

Something tells me that Dr Banaji doesn't get it.

pestilence said @ 4:22pm GMT on 20th Jan
Yep.

(Gifted And Talented Education kid here)

redneck rudy said @ 10:39pm GMT on 20th Jan
My psychopathic brat stomped your high-self-esteem weenie baby.

CapnSilver said @ 7:04pm GMT on 20th Jan
This isn't new information. It wasn't new 10 years ago either.

Transfer said @ 4:12am GMT on 21st Jan
Huh. Explains a few things I was already intrinsically feeling... wonder if now that I'm an "adult" I can fix the damage I've done to myself by believing that I was "smart..." Or fuck it lazy is great... hmmm.... time will tell.

Barnabas_Truman said @ 6:01am GMT on 21st Jan
That's the problem with being lazy and unmotivated--yes, there are ways to stop being lazy and unmotivated, but why bother?

mwoody said @ 9:14am GMT on 21st Jan
Well, uh, wasn't expecting to come to SE for porn and find a summary of what went wrong with my entire childhood, but that's the Internet for you. +1, thanks.