Friday, 23 November 2007

tellSE: A Troopers take on the Utah Taser Incident

A State trooper friend of mine weights in on the most recent taser video, bro. Follow up to This Post.

I’m sorry that I didn’t get this typed up in time for the original discussion but I figured its insightful enough that its worth a read.

I have two friends in law enforcement. One has been a Maryland State Trooper for five years and the other works in classified government police work (If you look up what major government defense agencies are in MD, you’ll figure it out). I showed both of them the video and they both agreed on the same things.

1. Bad police work. Bad to the point where he should be severely disciplined or fired.
2. A few small mistakes by our lucky taser “rider”

The one thing that’s pissed off both my law enforcement friends has been the total backlash against police in general. All sorts of yahoo’s have taken to the internet to scream about how police everywhere are tramping over their civil liberties. People are screaming now for the removal of tasers and the “trigger happy cops” as I’ve seen on some sites. They both agreed that this isn’t the case in this video, its just a dumb shit cop.

Below is a timeline with commentary from my State Trooper friend on some key points some of us might miss.

0.0 – We can see the cop pull off the shoulder in front of a 40mph sign. As soon as the man with his family drives past it, the cop lights him up and pulls him over.


Its hard to tell whether this is the second speed limit posting this cop has watched him pass. The audio is a bit muffled because of the traffic whizzing by. If there was a previous stop sign I can understand why he gave him a ticket. In fact, that’s pretty fair that he let him go after passing one stop sign and then pulled him over after passing a second. If this was the first sign the guy passed, then it’s a little dirty. I could understand why the guy would argue the traffic stop right from the onset. I’ve done a few of this myself, but I’ve never given out tickets. I just like to scare people and remind them to drive safe on the roads my wife and kids drive on.

0.39 – The officer gets out of his cruiser, walks right up to the car and sticks his head in the window.


“This is really important to understand what happens later. When ever I approach a vehicle, I always follow my protocol for how to approach. I don’t know what’s in this car. It could be a nice family of three or it could be a drug smuggler with a loaded gun in his center console. Obviously this cop isn’t nervous about approaching this vehicle. You can see him lean into the window with his hands on the door frame.”

0.50 – The cop becomes agitated and demands his license and registration right now.

“I don’t know what the exact protocol in Utah is, but in MD we always do two things when we pull someone over. We identify ourselves with our title and name (Officer Jones for example) and we tell them EXACTLY WHY WE PULLED THEM OVER. Saying speeding or going a little fast isn’t exact. Saying 57 in a 40mph zone is exact. Based on the responses of the driver, it appears that this officer didn’t do either”

2.08 – The officer returns and issues the driver a ticket


“This is another major protocol difference between Utah and MD. In MD we tell them exactly what the ticket says. We explain to them that by signing it, it’s not an admission of guilt. It just acknowledges that I pulled them over and that they will deal with it one way or another. I explain to them their rights should they want to appeal it (I could honestly care less, I get paid either way) and then I ask them to sign. I’ve never had a problem like this. I have had a few people who demanded to see where the sign was. I have no problem helping them get out of their car and safely walk over to view the sign in question. I would never want a member of the public to think that I’m just making tickets up for no reason or that I’m “just making my quota.” If I pull you over it’s because you broke the law, not because I need two more traffic stops to get my raise.”

2.22 – The driver refuses to sign the ticket

“This part confuses me a little. If I was in the same position and this driver refused, I would have repeated my whole “this is not an admission of guilt” statement and then cautioned him. In MD if you do night sign your ticket on sight, you are arrested and taken to a local police station to be formally charged. I would have said this to the driver while he was sitting in the car. I understand why he called him out. If it was a person I was concerned would flee the scene, I would have done the same. But the officer’s actions up to this point don’t warrant it. This also raises questions for what happens next.”

2.25 - The driver walks out of the car and points towards the sign. The officer draws his taser.

“There are too many things that went wrong here to count. I’ll try and point out the major ones. First off, the officer turned his back to the driver as he exited the car and walked back toward his cruiser. That’s probably the quickest way to get killed in the line of duty. You NEVER turn your back on someone. You can see him somewhat looking back as the man approaches him and points toward the 40mph from the beginning of the video. In the same situation, I would have allowed the man to walk back to my cruiser first, and then approached him. Then again I would have never been in this position in the first place. I suppose here that the officer could argue that the man became threatening. Imagine an officer turning around to find a man walking toward him with one hand pointing at something and the other near his hip. That would make me really nervous. But there are several problems here. 1. He wasn’t nervous before when he approached the vehicle and stuck his head in and 2. he turned his back to the driver. That’s the officers own fault. The next thing the officer does is reach for his taser. He immediately becomes incredibly threatening. I can’t see any reason from the video why he would elevate to that level of force in such a narrow amount of time. This officer went from sticking his head into the family SUV to taking a defensive position from a would be attacker in just a few seconds. I never point a weapon (taser, mace or firearm) at a person unless I am planning on using it. He could have just unhooked it and just kept it pointed down in his hand. But even that in my honest opinion would have been excessive.”


2.34 As the driver walks back towards his car he tasers him.
“The driver is obviously surprised and scared by the officer’s actions. Nothing he’s done up to this point warrants someone to point a weapon at him. You can see that he almost goes into a nervous shock. He keeps repeating what the heck is wrong with you, and slowly walks back towards his car (safety). This is where being a calm and collected officer comes into play. I’ll take you through what should have been the dialogue that could have easily diffused the situation.

From the point where the driver starts walking back towards his car:

“Sir, stop”
“Sir, Stop where you are right now!”
“Freeze”
“Freeze or I will taser you”
“freeze or I will taser you”

You’ll note that the officer here never said any of that. He simply kept telling the man to turn around. Again not the best police work here. This is another confusing point for me. I understand why he tasered him, but only to a point. The driver is clearly moving back to his car. This is dangerous. Is the man going to flee the scene? Is he going to run into the street? At this point, I have to stop him. If I try to approach him, things might get violent really quickly. You can see how close to the road they are. Any physical altercation could easily end up in the traffic lanes. So tasering him prevents either of these, sort of. If you look at when and where the officer tasers the driver you can see that he falls right along the side of the traffic lane (or possibly in the lane, I can’t be sure). This is extremely dangerous. This guy could have easily rolled around in pain right into traffic. Why did he wait until he was closer to the traffic lane to fire his taser? Why not right away? Just bad police work.”

There is point where the officer is yelling at the driver’s obviously pregnant wife. I’m willing to bet that this officer has never had to deal with a pregnant woman before, because I would have never spoken to her like that. The first time I watched the video I half expected this idiot to taser her too. He never calls her ma’am either, which to me is very disrespectful.


3.30 – The driver is placed under arrest.


“Again, bad bad police work. The officer says he’s placing the driver under arrest because he didn’t follow his instructions. Again, I don’t know the laws in Utah off the top of my head, but I’m willing to bet that failing to follow the instructions of an officer are not an arrestable offense. The officer fails to read the driver his Miranda rights. Bad police work. Just arrest him, read him his rights and put him in the back of the cruiser. Instead, he goes over to talk to wife while the driver gets up cuffed and approaches the officer. Is this officer asking to be attacked by someone? This is probably the second quickest way to get killed. He cuffed the driver and DIDN’T SEARCH HIM FOR WEAPONS. THEN LEFT HIM ALONE. You can debate that part all you want, but the man was easily able to get up on his feet and stand right behind the officer. This officer is very lucky to be alive”

5.20 - The driver asks repeatedly to have his rights read. The officer responds with “I want you to follow my instructions and do as you’re told.”


“this sort of talk makes my blood boil. We as officers have been hired by the people to serve them and protect them. This man asked for his rights to be read and the officer clearly decided not to. It really shows an inferiority complex on the part of the officer. He didn’t want to be told what to do by this driver, so he just decided not to listen. I suppose its good he didn’t in the long run. Now nothing this man said will be admissible in either the traffic charge against him or in the officer’s defense in the likely civil suit to follow.”


6.30 – The officer says “this is not the place to argue it.”


“He’s absolutely right. On the highway, I issue the citation and you sign it. Period. That’s why I’m sworn in as an officer. I have been vested this power by my state to issue citations when necessary. Once I write it, there is no debating it. You either acknowledge it in my presences by signing it or I take you down to the station to be formally charged. But this driver doesn’t seem to have a clue what’s going on. He doesn’t know why he was tasered. He doesn’t know what speed he was cited for driving. And now, he doesn’t know why he’s being arrested. That’s not his fault. Bad police work.”

8.00 – The officer explains to the drivers wife why he arrested her.


“Everything he says here is contradicted by the video. I’ll just leave it at that. I just hope it adds a few zero’s to their civil suit”

9.20 – The officer discusses the taser incident with his sergeant/senior officer.


“Again, there are multiple contradictions with what he told his senior officer and what actually happened. Apart from his inappropriate taser deployment, giving a false statement to a senior officer can get you fired really quickly. He said the man was jumping all over the place (and pointed to the spot where he actually fired the taser) and said at that point he pulled the taser. Not true. He also said that he warned the driver that he would fire a taser. Not true. Finally, the biggest thing that keys me into this officers personality is his “Oh, he’s completely in charge” comment at 9.20. This is the sort of asshole cop that I hate working with. He might as well as shouted RESPECT MA AUTHORATA while hitting him with the taser. Its clear to me that this officer had an inferiority complex with this man. He felt stupid and belittled. The thing is, you can’t let this driver get to you. You do your job, he signs the ticket and you move on with your life. You can see throughout the latter portion of the video where the officer won’t listen to what anyone says, because he feels he’s in charge. He won’t read the driver his Miranda rights because he’s in charge. He won’t discuss it further with his wife because the driver thought he was in charge.”

The bottom line is that this was just bad police work. What it highlights is what can happen when you give someone a non-lethal weapon. I’m trained to only pull out a taser in a situation where either I would normally use my firearm or the suspect is an immediate danger to themselves or other people (including me.) That is obviously not the case in this video. I’m glad that this video got posted online. Not because I want to see a cop fired or justice served. I think as a nation we need to have a dialogue about the proper use of non-lethal weapons. What if this driver had a heart condition and died on scene. Things would be looking very different right now.

What I want to say to anyone reading this is that not all cops are out to force you into submission and violate your civil rights. Some of us are Democrats (you’d understand that more if you know a bunch of cops), ACLU members or just plain nice folk serving in a noble position. The bottom line is that this officer made several bad choices. So did the driver, but I’m more than willing to excuse him. He’s the one who was tasered for very little reason. He’s not the one who’s pulled over hundreds of people on the side of the road. He’s not the one trained in how to issue citations and make arrests. He’s not trained in the use of force. He’s just a driver who was speeding, got scared when an officer pulled a weapon on him and made the mistake of walking away.







[by Binaryslyder@7:13pmGMT] [+10 Informative]

Comments

leswilkerson said @ 7:36pm GMT on 23rd Nov
Interesting and insightful. I know not all cops are dicks (as I was one, briefly...), and I really like to see the other side of the story told properly, by the non-dick cops.
KropperPrime said @ 7:37pm GMT on 23rd Nov [Score:3 Funny]
You were briefly a dick?
leswilkerson said @ 7:39pm GMT on 23rd Nov
E
leswilkerson said @ 7:40pm GMT on 23rd Nov
erm... "EeeeeYES..."

Um. No.

But yes.
b said @ 7:46pm GMT on 23rd Nov
+1 obvious joke
CthulhuDances said @ 10:36am GMT on 24th Nov
+1 Beautiful
darkener said @ 7:40pm GMT on 23rd Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
"I think as a nation we need to have a dialogue about the proper use of non-lethal weapons."

Ding ding ding.
KropperPrime said @ 7:43pm GMT on 23rd Nov
Before they start using this :
leswilkerson said @ 7:50pm GMT on 23rd Nov
Um... is that weapon winking?
b said @ 7:52pm GMT on 23rd Nov [Score:2 Funny]
-_-

think about it.
TheCooler said @ 10:53pm GMT on 23rd Nov [Score:1 Funny]
My god, he's a weapon! Then why would he want to purchase an abandoned school?
Rammek said @ 10:58am GMT on 24th Nov
Shhh! He could be reading this!
philby said @ 8:49pm GMT on 24th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
+1 Sensible Erection. Gosh i love you this little community.
b said @ 7:44pm GMT on 23rd Nov
this is probably the most difficult aspect of a situation like this: obviously binary's friend is one of the good cops and his attitude, actions and dedication to duty are seriously over shadowed by the conduct of cops like the one in the taser video.

the fact that an actual state trooper confirmed and elucidated what went wrong with this encounter to the rest of us lay people really says something to me.

i know there are good cops. i've run into the ones that are enforcing the spirit of the law and also the pricks that are enforcing the letter of the law to the point of being complete assholes about it.

there are too many of these officers that are poorly trained, have little compassion, are aggressive or belligerent for no reason and our outright power-tripping on their position.

i'm glad to see that here in canada there are no fewer than 7 reviews on tasers being conducted, according to a news blurb i saw today.

i think that part of the problem is that tasers are a relatively new tool of law enforcement and too many officers are of the mindset that "non-lethal" means "okay to use whenever the situation gets difficult".

police in a lot of places have a lot of damage control to do, and i sincerely hope that they get their shit sorted out and get back to the business of catching real criminals and stop terrorizing the citizenry they are supposed to be protecting.
Binaryslyder said @ 7:53pm GMT on 23rd Nov
As an aside to your comment:

The term they throw around in situations like this is similar to the "shoot em all and let god sort em out" line from die hard.

Some cops are under the impression that they can just tase everyone and sort out problems later. However, people are dying accidentally because of this.
Muefigilo said @ 8:02pm GMT on 23rd Nov
The fact that some die is horrible, but the concept of torturing people into submission is terrible to begin with...
maryyugo said @ 4:03am GMT on 24th Nov [Score:1 Funny]
the concept of people threatening cops who are doing their jobs is equally horrible. and a lot of people seem to be stupid enough (or to be generous, they are "lacking in tact and insight") to do that these days.
Context said @ 8:03pm GMT on 23rd Nov
It was very good reading this. Thank you, very much, for sharing it. A new view of the problem, and a very informed one at that.
assbastard said @ 8:39pm GMT on 23rd Nov
Thank you and thank your friend for this. It's not often these days that you get to hear from an honest officer, and that's a damn shame.
Naruki said @ 9:27pm GMT on 23rd Nov
"weighs in"

You know, this is going to severely fuck with maryyugo.

Two cops criticizing another. Her head will explode trying to figure out how to defend all of them.
maryyugo said @ 4:04am GMT on 24th Nov
you and nostril, a real pair of psychics, should get married and live in a cave.
donnie said @ 9:29pm GMT on 23rd Nov [Score:3 Insightful]
The one thing that’s pissed off both my law enforcement friends has been the total backlash against police in general. All sorts of yahoo’s have taken to the internet to scream about how police everywhere are tramping over their civil liberties. People are screaming now for the removal of tasers and the “trigger happy cops” as I’ve seen on some sites.

Anyone want to take a wager? My bet is that the news about cops and tazers is being deliberately hyped as a pretext to disarming and disbanding local police altogether - in favour of a nationalised Blackwateresque police force. The people will demand it in light of their "untrustworthy" and "savage" local police...and someone will win an election at some point pushing that as a talking point.
strangeffect said @ 12:23am GMT on 24th Nov
I was about to say "I'll take that bet" until I remembered Santorum tried to have the National Weather Service disbanded in order to foster competition among, well, national weather services.
maryyugo said @ 4:05am GMT on 24th Nov
santorum said that? that's rank ignorance, not conspiracy.
Misanthrope said @ 3:12pm GMT on 24th Nov
He has contributions from commercial weather channels?
philby said @ 9:04pm GMT on 24th Nov
not being an american i first read that santorum there by the frothy-butt-scum type definition. which i take it is kinda the same thing anyways.
maryyugo said @ 4:16am GMT on 24th Nov
it's conspiracy of blue, donnie. those cops are going to sacrifice themselves to destroy our democracy. we'd better get them before they get us. blackwater fever is our future. black helicopters and little armed robots with twelve sharply pointed legs will be our future. better get used to "assume the position".

donnie said @ 9:38am GMT on 24th Nov
You don't have to tell a vanishing minority of cops to be assholes and to abuse the toys you give them - they do it on their own. You just have to make sure that every time it happens, every news media outlet in the country trumps it up over top of the collapsing economy with DAH-DUHN-DAAA!! fanfare! News doesn't need truth, they just need the image of the cop zapping a guy. The rest can be made up "Tonight - police everywhere are going INSANE!"... etc

And conspiracy whackos don't make predictions that come true - that's reserved for, you know, scientists. They test their hypothesis by making predictions with the theory to see if the results are what they think... watch for it.
Soshi_Aroso said @ 10:01pm GMT on 23rd Nov [Score:1 Interesting]
I was the victim of a police beating. I, as much as anyone, can see how someone can think that police officers in general are out of control.

But the fact is that that attitude is simply wrong. In the many, many times I've dealt with police (as a retail store manager, as a First Responder, as a driver, etc.), this is the only one that's go so very wrong. I can't help the sick feeling in my gut that shows up along with any officer, but I'm sure not going to let it act irrationally.
maryyugo said @ 4:17am GMT on 24th Nov
why did you get beaten? if it was unfair, did you consult a goog lawyer?
diamantiferous said @ 7:41am GMT on 24th Nov
lawyers.google.com?
Anti-fuites said @ 3:26am GMT on 24th Nov
Anyone that has an ego so large he can't handle a middle class man with a pregnant wife asking questions about a speeding ticket has absolutely no business being a police officer. He should have been weeded out in police academy long before he was ever given a gun in the first place. In a perfect world perhaps...
maryyugo said @ 4:22am GMT on 24th Nov
the cop does look unfocused and scattered but maybe he had a bad day. or maybe he isn't a good cop. that's no excuse for what that "middle class man with the pregnant wife" did.

it matters that he was with a supposedly pregnant woman? that man didn't get tasered because for asking questions. he got tasered because he's sort of an ignorant egostistical self-absorbed individual without much common sense -- something you'd know if you'd seen his tv interview on cnn (which i did). so the combination of two people not at their best that day, both of whom could have been and acted smarter, caused this. and in the end, although there is always a risk to taser use, the guy is fine. so grow up and let the law and the courts deal with it.
Anti-fuites said @ 9:13am GMT on 24th Nov
I don't give a shit if the driver was jumping up and down pointing at the cop screaming obscenities. As long as he was not threatening the officer, himself or someone else a taser should never be drawn. Period. No, really, period.

It's not illegal to be an ass.
maryyugo said @ 1:11pm GMT on 24th Nov
either you didn't look carefully at the video or you didn't understand what you saw.

before the guy was tasered, he was obviously agitated and walked away from the officer. his left hand somewhere around his waist wasn't visible to the camera or the officer. he headed back to the car as if to get in and drive off. the officer had every justification to taser him.

what the officer did incorrectly was his handling of the conversation before the guy got out of his car. possibly if he had explained the law and the reason for signing tickets being required with more patience, the guy, who wasn't the brightest light in rocket science, might have understood it.

whether you give a shit or not doesn't matter much. the courts will decide this.
Anti-fuites said @ 1:59pm GMT on 24th Nov
I repeat

Anyone that has an ego so large he can't handle a man asking questions about a speeding ticket has absolutely no business being a police officer
Anti-fuites said @ 2:01pm GMT on 24th Nov
And tasers are only supposed to be used in situations where an officer would be justified in firing a regular gun. At least that is how they were sold to the public. Would you still be defending his actions if he instead took out his pistol and shot the man on the side of the highway?
HoZay said @ 3:32am GMT on 24th Nov
Part of the problem here is that cops generally justify/defend/cover up each other's little screwups. This guy probably should have been culled long ago, and I'll bet plenty of his fellow Utah officers aren't that surprised by his behaviour. It's easier to critique a Utah cop from Maryland than from Utah.
maryyugo said @ 4:25am GMT on 24th Nov
you know, you can't just cull out all the less than perfect cops. being a cop doesn't pay enough. you risk your life every day. you deal with the total scum of society. you have to look at and deal with people at their worst. you have to document and investigate clean up all sorts of terrible, bloody, dirty and dangerous scenes. and then you have to be polite and protective to some asshole who can't see a roadsign and then wants to argue about it on the highway rather than in court. sounds like a great line of work.
val said @ 4:45am GMT on 24th Nov
I always thought state police make good money. They do here in NY, where salary starts at over 50 grand. Almost 70 after a couple years.
maryyugo said @ 5:23am GMT on 24th Nov
these days, "50 grand" isn't very good money when even a middle level advertising manager gets 150 and his boss gets 250. 50 grand barely buys a decent car. a decent home in many parts of the country exceeds $500k. by a lot.
MachPi said @ 11:45am GMT on 24th Nov
I had no idea it paid so well to be Darren Stevens and Larry Tate.
Cash said @ 12:37pm GMT on 24th Nov
I'd say that state troopers are well-paid for a job that requires a high school diploma. In general, advertising managers require a bachelor's degree.

"Police and sheriff’s patrol officers had median annual earnings of $45,210 in May 2004."
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm

"Median annual earnings in May 2004 were $63,610 for advertising and promotions managers,"
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos020.htm

Also, 50K for police is probably a little inflated, whereas 150K and 250K for advertising managers are a lot inflated (going by BLS numbers).
medyv said @ 3:16pm GMT on 24th Nov
Starting at 50 grand a year is pretty damn good. I wouldn't mind increasing my annual income by five times.

And I could buy five great cars with that much money. I don't know what world you're living in.
medyv said @ 3:19pm GMT on 24th Nov [Score:1 Insightful]
I take that back. I know what world you're living in: a world where you have way too much fucking money.
medyv said @ 3:11pm GMT on 24th Nov
The CHP starts at more than 50 grand, with very good benefits. I don't know about city departments here, but county sheriff's deputies are also pretty well paid.
TeDDD said @ 3:33am GMT on 24th Nov
I must say, Cops are people too, meaning there are good and there are bad. I've had the good fortune to mostly meet the good sort so far.

On the other hand, my Grandmother has met one or two of the bad kind thanks to my deadbeat cousin. One night a Cop showed up at her house and demanded to see my cousin, who has already moved to Calgary at that time (we live in Ontario, it's quite a distance). He insisted that my cousin was in her house and was very aggressive and forceful. He didn't have any warrant or similar, the only reason he was there is because my cousin filled out her address when registering his car. After the officer kept demanding to see my cousin, my Grandmother finally lost her temper and told him he could come in and search every Goddamn room in her house, and then get the hell out of her face.

He left right after she told him that.
maryyugo said @ 4:26am GMT on 24th Nov
sounds like the cop was trying to do his job by taking an illegal shortcut and you had a wise and feisty grandmother.
manoreason said @ 4:17am GMT on 24th Nov
Best blog about this incident that I have read, by far: It's all about the AUTHORITAH!
maryyugo said @ 4:46am GMT on 24th Nov
oh yeah. filled with good stuff -- like this:

"Whether or not Massey was speeding through a construction zone, he was entirely within his rights to demand clarification of his supposed offense before affixing his signature to the traffic ticket. There was no need for Massey's signature. "

monumental ignorance of law and police procedures. and that's just a brief look.



CommanderCherkinov said @ 5:09am GMT on 24th Nov
Everytime something like this happens, you have to wonder why the people in charge keep cops like that on the force. Is it better to be undermanned with good cops or is it better to have tinhorns with tasers out shitting all over the procedures they're supposed to follow and ruining the reputation of the entire department?

It's cheaper to fire a bad cop and go through the mess of hiring another one than it is to pay out on a civil suit in a situation like this, ne?
maryyugo said @ 5:21am GMT on 24th Nov
this guy isn't necessarily a bad cop. do we know his whole history. maybe he had a bad day (or bad night before). cops, as someone noted, are also human.
MachPi said @ 5:46am GMT on 24th Nov
True statement, but *because* they are human, some of them are apt to be serious clockwork-orange level assholes. Those in charge need to weed relentlessly to keep that level down, or they need to be replaced with better gardeners.
maryyugo said @ 6:12am GMT on 24th Nov
a better gardner:
lilmookieesquire said @ 1:36am GMT on 25th Nov
Set phasers to stun commander data
Naruki said @ 9:49am GMT on 25th Nov
Data: No, wait, there should have been a comma there before my na...

*BZZZZZT!*

Data: Oooh, fuck!
Sean said @ 9:39am GMT on 24th Nov
If this isn's what bad cops do, then what do they do?

Are the supervillians? Pedophiles? Rapists?

Because this guy looked like a pretty bad cop to me.
kang said @ 6:07am GMT on 24th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
I've never had a problem with cops but I've gotten my share of speeding tickets and in no case has it ever gone as textbook as stated in the TellSE article posted.

- "If this was the first sign the guy passed, then it’s a little dirty." -- I really don't think most cops have this mind set. Unless you have a set of tits on a stick, and even then, you should count on getting a ticket. Maybe not 100% of the time (especially if he sees your doctor's coat in the front seat), but definitely most of the time. It's not dirty. It's simple: You broke the law = you get a ticket.

-- "I could understand why the guy would argue the traffic stop right from the onset." -- I can hardly believe this line. You should NEVER argue with a cop about your ticket. The cop will NEVER retract it because you got in his face or doubted his judgment or became confrontational. You argue the ticket in the courthouse. This is basic knowledge and this trooper is actually encouraging the wrong response?

-- In Michigan, we don't even have the choice of signing a speeding ticket. They just give it to you. Again, you argue it on the appointed court date, not by the road.


I don't think this cop was the best of the bunch, but I think the driver made some of the dumbest moves possible. Arguing with a cop, then getting out of your car and approaching him directly? It's not illegal but it is confrontational, which is counter to common sense when the other person has a gun, cop or not. It could almost count as Darwin Award material if he hadn't already had kids.

2 dumb people + ego/temper + gun (taser or not) = BAD RESULT

GOOD RESULT = Leave your ego and temper out of the equation when dealing with the cops.











dook_sucks said @ 6:33am GMT on 24th Nov
Thanks for taking the time to type this up BinarySlyder
wieder said @ 8:33am GMT on 24th Nov
Having 4 parents in law enforcement (and thus been surrounded by it for all of my 30 years as well as being on many rides), your friend is all over the place with this response. Honestly, he *sounds* like a cop who is trying to get civs to like him. There are some things he says which are pretty accurate, and some things which make me roll me eyes.

I continue to hold the opinion that it would do our society a lot of good if everyone were to spend a couple of weeks riding around with a big city police officer once in their lives... or with highway patrol.
chimx said @ 10:06am GMT on 24th Nov [Score:1 Underrated]
"“Sir, stop”
“Sir, Stop where you are right now!”
“Freeze”
“Freeze or I will taser you”
“freeze or I will taser you”"

I disagree with this. In this situation a taser, which is a potentially lethal device, is still being used as a coercive devise. They should be used as a safer alternative to a firearm. Using these things on peaceful non-threatening citizens in this manner is completely inappropriate and unfortunately it has become written into police protocol.
cb said @ 10:22am GMT on 24th Nov [Score:2 Funny]
Don't Tase Me Bro
Crysallis said @ 11:16am GMT on 24th Nov
I've gotten out of every ticket I've ever been pulled over for. I always pull as far off of the road as possible to ensure the officer is safe. I roll down all of my windows and switch on interior lights. I turn the car off and leave the keys on the dashboard. I keep both hands on my steering wheel and turn any music off.

When the officer approaches I listen and wait for instruction. When asked for my license and registration, before taking my hands off of the wheel, I explain I have to access my purse or glove. Once understood, I slowly fetch the documents and hand them to the officer.

When asked if I know I was speeding, I never directly answer. For example, "How fast were you going?" I always says, "At or slightly above the speed limit." If pressed, "You were speeding..." I reply, "If I was a little over the speed limit it may have been because of the downgrade back there" or whatever reason would make the most sense. Another one that I've had work is, "I accelerated to perform a safe, well distanced pass on a slow moving truck." etc.

The key is to make the officer feel is non-threatened, safe and respected as possible. Sure it's ego stroking but so what? You're only stroking your own ego by not offering respect and being a dick.

<3 COPS
Crysallis said @ 11:20am GMT on 24th Nov
Oops, forgot to mention; ALWAYS address the cop formerly (i.e. "Sir" or "Ma'am"). All highways cops are trying to do is ensure you're respecting the rules of the road and the people enforcing them. Once they are confident you understand, there's no reason to issue a ticket.
PedantMan said @ 11:37am GMT on 24th Nov
"Formally," you mean.

Another victory! To the Pedant-O-Ped, Robin!
Crysallis said @ 12:06pm GMT on 24th Nov
More than a few misspellings in there.
graham said @ 2:20pm GMT on 24th Nov
That's...odd...


Are you drunk & naked or something?
Cash said @ 11:40am GMT on 24th Nov
I got off of for every ticket (4-5 total) until I was about 19-20, since then I get tickets almost every time. I think the main difference is my appearance. I'm Italian and I have a constant 5 o'clock shadow, more so now that I'm in my later 20s. I had one cop drill me for 5 minutes about whether I had weapons or drugs in the car! I don't think of it as a race issue, but some people look more guilty than others.
Forsaken_One said @ 3:07am GMT on 25th Nov
Somehow I think the fact that you're female has something to do with it.
Naruki said @ 9:47am GMT on 25th Nov
Being white doesn't hurt, either.
Cash said @ 11:54am GMT on 24th Nov
I see a couple things that don't mesh with my experiences being pulled over.

"We identify ourselves with our title and name (Officer Jones for example) and we tell them EXACTLY WHY WE PULLED THEM OVER."

"In MD we tell them exactly what the ticket says. We explain to them that by signing it, it’s not an admission of guilt."

I find that it has varied a lot whether or not I was told right away the reason I was being pulled over. I really wish more cops were like your friend.
HoZay said @ 4:48pm GMT on 24th Nov
In my experience, they usually start with "do you know why I pulled you over?" Maybe you'll confess to something, like "was I weaving?, was it cause I left the scene of an accident? did somebody turn me in for smuggling?"
Naruki said @ 8:45pm GMT on 24th Nov
In my experience, it helps to get the first word in, as long as you have the right word.

I find "Free blowjobs! Get yer free blowjobs here! Get em while they're hot!" to be particularly effective.
borachio said @ 1:27pm GMT on 24th Nov
“I don’t know what the exact protocol in Utah is, but in MD we always do two things when we pull someone over. We identify ourselves with our title and name (Officer Jones for example) and we tell them EXACTLY WHY WE PULLED THEM OVER. Saying speeding or going a little fast isn’t exact. Saying 57 in a 40mph zone is exact. Based on the responses of the driver, it appears that this officer didn’t do either”

Having been in several cars pulled over in Utah (where I used to live), I can assure you that Utah police officers follow the same protocol. Having experienced Utah police before, and having dated a dispatcher's daughter, I can tell you that, in my experience, they're pretty good cops.

There are exceptions, however, including an ongoing investigation into an incident during which a detective shot and killed an unarmed man (with a flashlight) who felt that the detectives were harrassing him. So, some seem to have a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. I doubt that it's endemic of Utah, however.
buzhidao said @ 1:03pm GMT on 25th Nov
my first thought, early on in watching this, was that it was really strange how the officer leaned up against the car.

if an officer did this, i'd immediately be concerned i was dealing with a slack-assed and poorly trained officer (hence dangerous), or maybe just some sick fuck with a gun. and just try to get though the situation.

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